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Well, welcome everyone. And thanks for,

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coming today to talk about food and attachment.

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One of my favorite subjects certainly has been for the last ten or fifteen years,

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as I've been trying to put the pieces together of what has happened.

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We know that we need to eat together. We all know that we need to eat.

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We all know that we need togetherness.

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But what about putting these two things together?

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Something actually has come undone.

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Even though we have global prescriptions, like right around the world, you'd hear people say and articulate, we need to eat together.

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What's happening? Do we need to keep talking about this?

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Hasn't it been kind of talked to death, researched enough?

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Is there anything new actually that we need to say about it?

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And I'd like to suggest that actually there is.

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There's actually a whole need to relook at this area.

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And one of the most important reasons why is that when you talk to health professionals,

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when you talk to parents,

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one thing that's really clear that I heard over and over again in my research on this topic was that we're in trouble.

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There isn't one of us that doesn't have some sort of eating issue.

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And what do I mean by eating issue?

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Well, either being alarmed about the food that we eat, eating too much, too little, worrying about getting fat, health issues that come up, worried about what's in our food, the nutrition that's there, not feeling at rest around our food, feeling alarmed by it.

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One of the writers, Michael Pollan, in many in one of his many books on food said that, you know, in North American culture, and I think I would extrapolate that to other places in the world, that we're so focused on nutrients,

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that we've lost the sense of enjoyment that cultures food cultures like in

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France and in Italy would

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more celebrate food and eating together and see it as a sign of enjoyment.

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But that isn't the case here.

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It's a huge industry that plagues and plays upon our fears and our anxieties. So what has happened?

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What has come undone?

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It's not for a lack of trying to make sense of it. We have huge industries,

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in medicine and health and nutrition.

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We have these incredible,

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diets and exercise plans and more specialists than we ever could possibly imagine,

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who are aiming to help us in this

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broken relationship that we have with feeding and eating. And yet, we don't find ourselves

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making any headway. So what is happening here? How are we coming undone?

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Well, when you look at health research, one of the biggest components that they actually miss, and they don't really talk about enough, but there is actually lots of research there that shows that things like separation,

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alienation,

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isolation

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is as bad for you as smoking cigarettes.

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In fact, on all the research on longevity and there's

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longitudinal research now that's available on who's living the longest.

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And what we find over and over again is that, yes, of course, food, nutrition,

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exercise, these types of things

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do help,

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with longevity.

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But the biggest factor is relationship, the relationship we have to ourself

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and the relationship we have with other people.

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One of the challenges is, of course, is that

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these things are able to prey upon us because we have lost our food culture.

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In North America in particular, we are a land of immigrants, settlers.

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And,

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and so what we were not able sometimes to take is our food cultures with us, although there have been valiant efforts to do that.

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But that sense of it being intact and guiding us, there's been the pressures of industrialization,

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food that has moved in that is foreign to us. We're now able to fly in food from all over the place.

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So we've become very

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disconnected,

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to land, to place, to people, to culture.

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Our food has become increasingly dehumanized and depersonalized.

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And one of the biggest ways this has happened is with our turn to behavioral and learning theory, where we believe that the way to actually producing a healthy eater is by teaching, is by actually using consequences, threats, bribes, rewards, punishment.

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The only thing that that actually did was made food and eating

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more,

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adverse,

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that we couldn't listen to the cues of our own body and made our caretakers

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adversaries instead of the wonderful providers that they're meant to be. So we've come undone.

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We've lost our way. And we are seeing the health effects of that,

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every day.

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Eating disorders in Winnipeg, in one particular hospital Winnipeg, and you heard this all over North America,

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Eating Disorders,

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went through the roof during COVID.

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As a and we could actually look at our distress around food as being a stress response, actually a response to too much separation.

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It doesn't mean that parents caused all of this. Please don't take that.

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I don't believe that at all.

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I believe we live in a culture that doesn't necessarily bind our children to their adults in the way that provides that security, safety,

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and home base and rest that they need. So what are we to do? Well, I think it's great,

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with great irony

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and tragedy, we need to look at the fact that our relationship with food is actually harming us.

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Living species, animals and plants give their life so we can be sustained. And yet,

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what we do with it and how we feed is oftentimes making a mockery of all the gifts that nature has given us.

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But the problem is, is that it's so close to us.

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We operate under these unconscious scripts, these things that have been passed down, that our parents passed down from what they passed, got passed down.

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And so we operate unconsciously, oftentimes not even really aware

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of what is, running underneath the surface. And I'll give you a bit of a an example of that.

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When my daughters were three and a half and two,

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I got called into work, on fact I was on faculty and got called into work to do a hiring.

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I usually had daycare, but I had to rely on one of the grandparents this day.

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And so when the grandparents came, I said, listen, could you just please take them to the park and take them for lunch, my treat?

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Could you please take them for sushi and not the fast food stuff? I'd really appreciate it.

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So no problem. I go. I go to work. I get, like, the call from grandma in the middle of an interview.

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And so I excuse myself. I go outside and I've got a panicked grandma on the end.

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And all I can hear in the background is my daughter

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yelling, I want hamshakers.

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I want hamshakers.

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And grandma's like, I'm having a bit of a problem.

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I want to go for sushi, but she's telling me she won't go and that she wants ham to curse.

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And I said, okay. Well, have you just said no and that you're gonna go, no. No. I can't do that.

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I can't do that. It's too hard on my grandma's heart. She's crying so loud.

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I think you should talk to her. So I'm gonna give her the phone. Okay?

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And you can tell her what you want. And I said, no. Please do not give her the phone.

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Stop.

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And so I was panicked. And I thought quickly,

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I just said, listen. Here's the deal. Maybe what we need to do and see if you can do this.

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Could you say to her that in your authority as a grandma,

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you are going to make a grandma

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executive decision,

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and you are gonna decide where you go for lunch today and that you'll talk to me later and tell me that you decided you wanted to go for hamburgers and to forego the sushi.

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Could you do that? And she said, oh, yeah. I could do that. No problem.

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So anyway, get back home, get my daughter,

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have my chat with her before we go to bed. She's three and a half.

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And I say to her, I I heard there were some, troubles today and, you wanted to go for hamburgers and, you know, grandma wanted to go for sushi, then she wanted to go to hamburgers again.

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So so what happened? And my three and a half year old said to me, mama, I just did my boo hoo

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hoo. And I got to go for hamshakers.

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There's a couple of lessons in that. First of all, never underestimate a three and a half year old,

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especially when it comes to food and knowing what they want.

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They already have an idea of their preferences, wants and wishes. And this is not a mistake.

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Number two, never, never overestimate a grandma's heart and what their role is meant to do and to support that.

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And number three,

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what is it that is driving

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these decisions

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that just come out of us? What was driving me?

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That was sixteen years ago. I

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was

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being exposed to Gordon's work and a relational paradigm.

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I didn't have words for this, but something was operating on me underneath the surface.

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And I think it'll make if it's not clear to you now, it will be clear to you by the end of this presentation.

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But I want to just talk about three myths that are actually getting in the way and undoing us.

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The first is, is that we equate nourishment with food.

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This is a huge mistake.

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Food doesn't simply nourish us.

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The word nourish is actually a beautiful word. It comes from,

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French and, from Latin roots.

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And basically it means to preserve, to take care of, to cherish, to raise, to feed, to provide for.

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It's a developmental word.

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It actually means, what do I need to do to take care of whatever this living thing or being is so that it can reach its full human potential?

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You see the problem. When we treat

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nourishment as just food,

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it's like an out of we disconnect the parts of the self as, you know,

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North American culture oftentimes does, is disconnect the head from the heart from the body.

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You don't just nourish a body. Okay.

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Well, we're gonna nourish your body over here, and then you're gonna go to school and we're gonna nourish your head.

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And then I'm gonna have my chats with you and I'm gonna nourish your heart.

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Nature never worked that way. She's not that inefficient. She put it all together.

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And so of course, eating is not simply a nutritional event.

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It's a relational event. It's an emotional event.

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It's how nature tied all of these things together in a beautiful way so that we could get our caretaking across

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to the people that we love and that they could feel the care.

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It's a beautiful invitation.

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So we've turned eating into a nutritional event, and this has been a great tragedy to the love story that food was meant to represent.

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The second thing that's happened is, oh my goodness, are we ever in love with this notion of the table and eating together?

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It took me a while to get my head around this. But my goodness, the magic was never in the table.

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Just because you sit beside someone at a table does not mean you are eating together.

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You may not like that person. That person may be unkind.

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That person may be wounding.

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Just because you sit and eat does not mean there is togetherness.

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And so where is the magic of the table coming from?

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Because all the research shows that when families eat together, you oftentimes see a greater academic performance, you see less drug and alcohol use, you see higher confidence, a goal achievement,

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you see less criminality, you see all sorts of beautiful

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outcomes that are correlated with the table. But it's not the table. That's the whole thing.

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And that's the maddening part about this research.

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And when researchers actually did get in there to try to unpack what is happening here, what they found was that the biggest single causal factor of families that had meals together, they all had one thing in common, and that was that they had caretakers

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who had values

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around

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this idea of togetherness. And so they preserve the table. They preserve food as a connection point.

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The table doesn't have any magic here. The secret to resiliency lies in relationship.

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It's about who gathers you to the table. The table is a way.

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It's a stage where we enact togetherness, but it doesn't mean we're together.

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We have to take care of the heart. We have to take care of the relationship.

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And so the table, we need to think about this and really deconstruct it.

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The third thing that we have to think about, and this is a big one, is that we don't teach our children how to become eaters.

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We don't.

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We are the only mammal species that spend so much time dedicated

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to teaching directly about food. Here's your food pyramid.

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Here's how many fruits and vegetables you need to eat. Okay.

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And, you know, think about what's in here in this category and how much water.

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We break it down for them as an academic subject. It was never meant to be this.

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And just even talking about it, it kills the love of food as soon as you turn it into work.

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I remember watching a TV show when I was younger

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and the character was talking about broccoli and how broccoli was wonderful and you should eat lots of broccoli.

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And even at five or six, I thought something's up with broccoli.

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I like broccoli, but the more that that, figure talked about eating broccoli, the more resistant and oppositional I became.

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Children were never meant to be pushed, never meant to be coerced.

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And in actual fact, what those programs do, there's been no success

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to these educational programs. They're benign. And sometimes they actually can create, children's

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adverse reactions to the very thing that we're trying to do to help them.

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And so we have to think it through. Of course, how have children always learned about food?

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It's not that we're not without,

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capacity to guide them and influence them here. Of course we are.

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But we learn about it through relationship.

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We learn about it through sameness, through imitation, to wanting to be liked, to wanting, you know, to please, to meet expectations,

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to wanting to be part of, through belonging. And of course, children

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are incredible scientists. They explore the world. They play. They discover. They unearth.

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They know exactly what to do with food. They stick it on their fingers. They crush it.

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They smell it. They put it on their body. They're exploring food all the time.

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They're learning about food all the

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time. Through a behavioral lens,

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we have taken away the enjoyment and the natural conditions through which our children are meant to unfold as eaters.

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And so what do we do when they don't follow our behavioral prescriptions,

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when they don't behave at the table, when they don't eat what we want, when they're not eating the right food and that's too healthy and you're doing this or that?

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Oh, you're a picky eater.

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Fifty percent of children by the age of two to three will be labeled as picky eaters.

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There's even a pathologizing

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word for it called neophobia.

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There's nothing wrong with this. This is actually quite developmental.

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The problem is is that we've lost our way. We've lost our insight, our instincts.

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We don't understand how these things go together.

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So as you can tell, I'm a little bit passionate about this.

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When I have these conversations with my husband or my loved ones, they say, okay, mama. Okay, Deb.

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What's the way through then? What are we supposed to do?

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If we're so lost and coming undone, do you actually have some answers?

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And I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I've thought long and hard about it.

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And I'm gonna give you three that begin with r.

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The first is is that if we truly want to eat together, we have to think about receptivity.

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Receptivity, what does that mean? It means when we offer a gift, is the other person

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receptive to receiving it? It doesn't mean because we offer it.

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It doesn't mean because it's a brilliant gift that we give, that they are open to receiving it.

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This is a dance. We may give, they need to receive, they need to be open to it.

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Feeding is one of those things.

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The more you coerce, the more you shove, the more you push, the more you make a mess of things.

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And so receptivity. Now where does receptivity come from? It comes from the relationship.

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And here's the challenge is that when it comes to relationship,

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there's different types of dances we can be doing. And there's three in particular

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that are happening and unfolding around food, and only one of them actually will lead to fulfillment.

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And will get the love and the care across as well as the food. And that is the dance of satiation.

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This beautiful dance of satiation,

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if you can think about the choreography

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in a satiating dance, there's giving, there's receiving, there's receptivity, there's gratitude,

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there's fulfillment that comes from this. Children are receptive.

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Our loved ones are open. That's a very fulfilling dance.

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But there is also two other dances which are very problematic.

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Sometimes they're choreographed by frustration, frustration in the caretaker because the child isn't taking them up on on their offer.

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I've been there as a parent many times over.

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And the child is frustrated because the parent sometimes isn't providing what they think they want or isn't getting to their needs soon enough, is missing the needs.

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And so you get this dance of frustration and no one's fulfilled, and feeding and eating become a mess.

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But there's even a greater problem when the choreography in that dance is governed by competition,

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where the child is commanding and demanding, when the parent is commanding and demanding, and it ends up in these food battles, these food wars, and everything goes backwards.

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It's not even about eating and feeding anymore.

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It's actually about the relationship and what's being coming undone and how everything gets brought into this mess.

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And so what's the dance that we must do around feeding and eating? It's the dance association.

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It's the dance where we're looking for receptivity.

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And if it's missing in our child, it may not even be due to us.

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It can be due to the day they had at school.

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It may be something that's happening outside of the home.

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It can be all sorts of things, but how do we get back into that receptivity?

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How do we bring them to our side? How do we claim our children?

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You know, one of the biggest tragedies today is that where do our children now go for advice?

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Where are we now going to advice?

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We go to mama Google. We go to mama Google. What should I serve tonight?

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You know, and I I admit I go there days and nights for recipes and whatnot, but we go for answers.

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How do I get my kid to eat? How do I get my picky eater to try new foods?

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We turn to mother Google as the influencer in our own life. And our children are also turning

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to online,

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social media, to other children.

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What are they eating in a day? Tracking them.

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They're disordered eating, proliferating, where the influencers in their life are no longer the adults.

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There are other children. Our eating has become pre oriented as well, and we're losing our children

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to more and more eating issues because we are no longer the influencer

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that they need.

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So what's the problem? The problem is is that dependency

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is vulnerable. It's vulnerable territory.

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We can't use the spoon to feed and to also hurt them, which has been done in the past as a form of punishment.

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The very spoon that was meant to nurture

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our children and bring them close was used

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as a form of punishment. We can't have it both ways.

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We have to reclaim

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our rightful place, and we have

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to work in relationship. If there are food problems, it's relationship that's gonna be the answer.

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And those food problems can come from many different directions.

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They can become because of genetics or issues in the child that make it difficult to receive.

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We've got to find our way through that sometimes through tears, sometimes through, you know, great sadness and futility

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and walking around the maze a hundred times over, sometimes through play, but never forgetting that we were meant to be the answer to this.

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Now

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that's the first R receptivity, and that's a big one, but it's not complete. We also need rest.

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And what do I mean by rest? Well, rest on many different levels on an emotional

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level, on a physical level, the integration

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of rest overall, and how the body, brain and heart and spirit work together.

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And so what we need to understand about rest is that the body has a certain amount of energy, and that energy is going to be deployed for survival purposes, and the brain has decisions to make.

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And so the thing that needs to happen is that the brain is sorting through what problems do I have to solve right now, and where do I send this energy?

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Digestion takes a lot of energy.

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Bra the brain actually takes 25%

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of our energy on any given day.

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And when there are emotional problems, the brain says, I need more energy.

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And so do you know where it borrows from? You know exactly where it takes the energy from.

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It takes it from digestion because we have stores of energy in our body

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that can actually allow for

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survival while the brain figures out a problem that is necessary, more necessary for survival.

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And so

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the gut can be hijacked

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by the emotional brain. We don't realize that.

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You can feed the stomach, but it doesn't mean it can actually use the nourishment and the food that you've provided.

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We can,

289
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the gut absolutely

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reacts to the sensory sys is part of the sensory system to the outside world, sending messages to the brain, pay attention to this.

291
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And so we just can't assume that we're at rest when we digest and when we're at rest, when it comes to food.

292
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And we need to be at rest in order to to digest because that energy needs to be deployed in that direction.

293
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And so emotional rest relationship is really important.

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But here's the challenge is that our emotional system has a mind of its own.

295
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We don't necessarily always know what's going on. And rest can be elusive.

296
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It's tricky sometimes.

297
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It's not easy just to switch from a work mode into a rest mode.

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I was eating lunch the other day with my daughter,

299
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who's home from university, just a short little bit.

300
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And I thought, I'm going to surprise her and get her her favourite meal.

301
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I couldn't make it because I was in the middle of my workday.

302
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I had work problems also that I was dealing outside of that. Things were stacked on.

303
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I just thought I'm just gonna get a nice lunch from the favorite favorite place.

304
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So I went and picked it up and she's, oh, this is a great mom.

305
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We sit down to eat and I'm trying to pay attention.

306
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I'm trying to be there and we're having a conversation.

307
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And then I say something, and then I look at her and she's mad at me. She's frustrated with me.

308
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Why don't you listen? Why why do I have to tell you that over and over again?

309
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That's not what I said. Of course, I got frustrated.

310
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Here I was trying to, spend time with her and given her the gift of her favorite meal.

311
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And here we were at this level of frustration.

312
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Well, I lost my appetite at that point.

313
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And it was only later that I was able to come back to her and say, hey, what was it that happened between us there?

314
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And she said to me very clearly and very astutely, mom, I felt like you didn't care when I had to repeat myself.

315
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And I thought, well, what was going on inside of me that I wasn't listening? I do this for a living.

316
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I listen for a living.

317
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I wasn't at rest.

318
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I was there. I was trying to be there. I was trying to listen.

319
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I was trying to, you know, let her know how much I care about her, but not all of me was there.

320
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It was kind of like a disembodied experience.

321
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I wasn't at rest.

322
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I wasn't at rest. So even though you can yearn in this direction,

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the heart has reasons that reason knows not of as Blaise Pascal says. So we need some help.

324
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We need some help

325
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to get to that rest. And that's where the third r comes in. And that's about ritual.

326
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Ritual

327
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are these channels, these habits, these consistencies,

328
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this predictability,

329
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the things that we do that bring us into this rest mode.

330
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What would have happened if I had made us lunch?

331
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If I had chopped some vegetables, even if it's just something simple?

332
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What if I had laid the table differently?

333
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What if I had said grace or, you know, some sort of poem or some sort of opening introduction?

334
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What if I had just paused for a moment just to connect first before and to to catch and,

335
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see where my state was, my head, my heart,

336
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and was I fully there? I remember going up to Haida Gwaii

337
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on a speaking engagement, and I went into this beautiful

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museum they have up there. And I read on the wall, that in Haida tradition,

339
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it is not allowed or not part of cultural wisdom or practice to actually make a meal

340
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when you do not have good thoughts or feelings. And I was intrigued by that.

341
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I didn't understand that at first.

342
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I mean, it made sense to me, but I didn't totally understand that.

343
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And so I remember I was at another presentation.

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I was sitting with a with a woman who had an indigenous history and background.

345
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And I said to her, can you help me understand this?

346
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I don't know if you have any wisdom on this to share, but I read this and,

347
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you know, does this mean anything to you or can you help me understand it?

348
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And so she shared with me her teaching, which was, you know, yes, I also practice that where if I come home from work and I am not in a good mood and I've had a really hard day and I'm just not there, I do not cook and prepare food for my family.

349
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I tell my eldest that she must cook food for her siblings.

350
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And I go to my room and I separate myself until I can get back,

351
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again and to to recover. And I will, come back and rejoin the family.

352
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And so I said to her, that's incredible. Can you tell me and help me understand,

353
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why this is so?

354
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And what I heard her say was, I don't want my family

355
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to have to bear these emotions.

356
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I don't want these emotions to pollute the place where I nourish my children and bring them together.

357
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And I thought that's so beautiful. What an incredible ritual.

358
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What if we had our own rituals, not taking someone else's ritual, but our own rituals to come into that place where that generosity, where that warmth, where that invitation

359
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could get through. This is the challenge today

360
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is receptivity

361
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and rest. And these rituals have all,

362
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there without, we're without words to them.

363
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Sometimes we don't know they're important and they're certainly not protected by culture, But there is something else that actually has been lost here, something that I think

364
00:24:33.610 --> 00:24:37.390
is far greater and far and far tragic that I want to just bring,

365
00:24:37.770 --> 00:24:40.830
to you to your awareness because I actually think it also,

366
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bears the answer to when we can actually see this. So I'm gonna show you a a short video here.

367
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Let me just queue it up for you.

368
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If you could have dinner with anyone living or dead,

369
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who would you choose?

370
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Kylie Minogue.

371
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Marilyn Monroe. Oh, god. I wouldn't have a clue. I know. Straight up. Yeah. Paul Hogan.

372
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Kim Kardashian.

373
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No. No. No. I'd like to have dinner with Justin Bieber.

374
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What?

375
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You're not coming to my house. So,

376
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I'd have Bob Hawke. Dave Hughes. Barry Humphries. Jimmy Hendrix.

377
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People who have made a difference in the world, maybe Nelson Mandela at the dinner

378
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table.

379
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Oh my god. Nobody's so sorry. I'm scared.

380
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If you could have dinner with anyone in the world Oh. Who would you choose?

381
00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:40.980
Probably our whole family, like a whole extended

382
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family. Mom and dad.

383
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Mom and dad.

384
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Does it have to be a celebrity?

385
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Could it be family?

386
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We love it. We talk about how school is. We ask mom and dad how their day was.

387
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Family.

388
00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:01.759
Yeah. Mom and dad.

389
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Family.

390
00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:07.840
Who would you like to have a dinner with? They just want to be

391
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with us

392
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while they're eating food, which is pretty cool.

393
00:26:12.905 --> 00:26:14.525
They see us above everything.

394
00:26:15.705 --> 00:26:16.425
I'm gonna get

395
00:26:17.145 --> 00:26:20.605
Yeah. Yeah. A bit a bit of a message in it for me. Yeah.

396
00:26:29.300 --> 00:26:30.840
What are we having for dinner?

397
00:26:38.435 --> 00:26:41.975
I think the the irony is, of course, what a beautiful video,

398
00:26:42.435 --> 00:26:43.575
in so many ways.

399
00:26:44.435 --> 00:26:47.415
And you get at the heart of it, which I think is,

400
00:26:48.115 --> 00:26:50.295
you know, I had an elder once at a presentation

401
00:26:50.675 --> 00:26:57.549
who said, as she opened up the presentation, she said, the hardest and longest journey is from the head to the heart.

402
00:26:57.690 --> 00:27:03.389
And it just reminds me of where we live with this whole topic of feeding and eating.

403
00:27:03.575 --> 00:27:09.275
We are so much in our heads and such a journey that we have to make because what is actually missing

404
00:27:09.815 --> 00:27:12.315
is actually we've forgotten who we are to our children.

405
00:27:12.775 --> 00:27:15.115
We've forgotten that we are much more

406
00:27:15.415 --> 00:27:17.755
than just cooks. We've forgotten.

407
00:27:19.540 --> 00:27:21.800
Oops. My presentation is undone.

408
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:31.480
Sorry. We've forgotten that we are much more than cooks, that we're much more than homework helpers.

409
00:27:32.115 --> 00:27:33.415
We are much more,

410
00:27:33.875 --> 00:27:34.855
than just drivers.

411
00:27:35.475 --> 00:27:42.695
We are the answer when it comes to connection, when it comes to food, when it comes to the things that are most important for survival.

412
00:27:43.075 --> 00:27:47.870
And so what has happened is that we've lost our place. We've forgotten who we are.

413
00:27:48.090 --> 00:27:53.870
We've forgotten that what matters most is this connection between us and that food must be a celebration

414
00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:54.830
of it.

415
00:27:56.250 --> 00:28:00.830
We need to get back to reclaiming our kids and taking the lead again around food.

416
00:28:01.165 --> 00:28:02.625
We need to get back

417
00:28:02.925 --> 00:28:04.225
to, to,

418
00:28:05.005 --> 00:28:08.945
to community and to being together with each other around food.

419
00:28:09.645 --> 00:28:14.225
We need to reclaim these spaces. It's not simply just about eating together anymore.

420
00:28:14.285 --> 00:28:18.860
That's not good enough. And that's actually not true. It's not just about eating together.

421
00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:23.660
It's not about food before togetherness. It's always about to gather first

422
00:28:24.040 --> 00:28:30.780
and then to eat. Right? There must be a harvest before there is the meal and the feast.

423
00:28:30.915 --> 00:28:35.095
And so our job is to gather. Our job is to bring our children close to us.

424
00:28:35.155 --> 00:28:41.015
Our job is to collect them, to engage them, to invite them, to come alongside,

425
00:28:41.315 --> 00:28:44.535
and that we should never forget and to hold close

426
00:28:45.075 --> 00:28:46.135
to our hearts.

427
00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:50.510
That food will serve us best when it serves our togetherness.

428
00:28:51.050 --> 00:28:53.870
The simple fact is this is that no one comes

429
00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:58.670
to just simply eat from your table, they come for connection,

430
00:28:58.970 --> 00:29:01.710
they come for you, they come for

431
00:29:02.625 --> 00:29:06.725
getting their most important hunger that needs to be met fulfilled

432
00:29:07.265 --> 00:29:08.485
through human relationships.

433
00:29:09.025 --> 00:29:14.885
I hope this has made sense and has been good. Pardon upon food for thought. Thank you.

434
00:29:18.790 --> 00:29:19.929
Oh, Deborah.

435
00:29:20.309 --> 00:29:21.130
Thank you.

436
00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:22.150
I,

437
00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:23.370
will invite

438
00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:25.290
Gordon up as well.

439
00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:27.690
Chad is back on.

440
00:29:30.165 --> 00:29:30.665
You

441
00:29:31.125 --> 00:29:35.285
I I have to get the the tears out of my eyes, first of all, here.

442
00:29:35.285 --> 00:29:38.105
But you're looking for the Kleenex, first of all. That was,

443
00:29:38.965 --> 00:29:42.015
yeah, very, very, very touching and very moving. And,

444
00:29:42.860 --> 00:29:47.740
oh my goodness. Can you talk, Deborah? Oh, I'm completely satisfied. I said it just flows.

445
00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:49.440
You know, it just flows. But,

446
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:53.020
makes so much sense. So much sense about,

447
00:29:53.900 --> 00:29:54.560
and again,

448
00:29:55.100 --> 00:29:59.255
when I listened to you, it was like this image, right, where where

449
00:30:00.435 --> 00:30:00.935
somehow,

450
00:30:02.835 --> 00:30:06.135
food, feeding, eating has become divorced

451
00:30:06.515 --> 00:30:07.495
from attachment,

452
00:30:08.115 --> 00:30:08.615
relationship,

453
00:30:08.915 --> 00:30:09.415
togetherness.

454
00:30:10.355 --> 00:30:12.375
But to to attachment, togetherness

455
00:30:12.755 --> 00:30:14.910
has become divorced from caring

456
00:30:15.530 --> 00:30:17.310
because it's what caring is about

457
00:30:17.850 --> 00:30:19.630
and it's like those three

458
00:30:20.170 --> 00:30:21.150
need to come

459
00:30:21.530 --> 00:30:22.030
to

460
00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:26.910
to all together and so we need we give heart to food,

461
00:30:27.610 --> 00:30:28.910
purpose to relationship

462
00:30:29.775 --> 00:30:34.755
through making sure that we are caring through it, taking care of them,

463
00:30:35.135 --> 00:30:36.255
you know, doing this.

464
00:30:36.255 --> 00:30:43.875
And so it's bringing it all together that, that gives it heart, that gives it fruit, that gives it results.

465
00:30:43.935 --> 00:30:45.315
And it was just that,

466
00:30:46.070 --> 00:30:49.210
but if I can think of the three strands of, you know,

467
00:30:49.590 --> 00:30:52.090
of the DNA, this is the DNA of caring.

468
00:30:52.390 --> 00:30:54.890
The DNA of caring is relationship

469
00:30:55.270 --> 00:30:58.410
that care and that food are an essential part,

470
00:31:00.455 --> 00:31:03.595
a real part, a symbolic part, a metaphorical part,

471
00:31:03.975 --> 00:31:06.715
in every which way, in a literal part of

472
00:31:07.095 --> 00:31:07.595
that.

473
00:31:07.975 --> 00:31:08.475
Mhmm.

474
00:31:08.855 --> 00:31:11.100
Yeah. Yeah. It hangs onto it.

475
00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:20.240
Yes. And it it it's it's waiting in us until it it it it comes it comes and then and then from that,

476
00:31:21.100 --> 00:31:22.080
giving it out.

477
00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:22.960
Mhmm.

478
00:31:23.260 --> 00:31:25.440
Yeah. So many pieces and I I,

479
00:31:27.115 --> 00:31:29.135
yeah. The just even the name

480
00:31:30.235 --> 00:31:31.855
unpacking the word nourish,

481
00:31:32.795 --> 00:31:36.555
you know, and that you describe it as a developmental word.

482
00:31:36.555 --> 00:31:42.620
And I, I, I think, and there's a lot of people excited about your book coming out on this topic and

483
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.700
and nourish that that question of what do I need to take care?

484
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.780
Right? What do I need to provide those conditions

485
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:58.044
so that you can be you can rest in that care. You can be receptive to that care.

486
00:31:58.825 --> 00:31:59.865
And I I,

487
00:32:00.265 --> 00:32:03.085
oh, I just I saw myself in so many of your examples.

488
00:32:03.784 --> 00:32:07.385
One in particular of, you know, feeling like I'm doing all the right things.

489
00:32:07.385 --> 00:32:08.845
I'm getting the favorite food,

490
00:32:09.710 --> 00:32:13.970
but my heart isn't in there. My heart isn't present. And

491
00:32:14.350 --> 00:32:17.570
and your example of your daughter just this week, and and

492
00:32:18.590 --> 00:32:21.570
and where she's like, you're not you're not here. You're not here.

493
00:32:22.270 --> 00:32:23.810
And how many times

494
00:32:24.595 --> 00:32:27.495
I wasn't there and having to slow that down.

495
00:32:27.875 --> 00:32:32.135
And I had a time this week with my daughter, my oldest daughter, and

496
00:32:32.595 --> 00:32:37.495
I went in. I had to be so intentional because I no. I want to be present.

497
00:32:37.875 --> 00:32:41.830
We're going for your favorite food. We're spending this time together.

498
00:32:42.690 --> 00:32:45.830
I wanna show up, and I wanna show up from the heart.

499
00:32:46.530 --> 00:32:47.030
And

500
00:32:47.330 --> 00:32:47.730
I,

501
00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:50.230
and what a time we had

502
00:32:50.690 --> 00:32:52.630
when I could start in that way.

503
00:32:53.134 --> 00:32:53.634
Mhmm.

504
00:32:53.934 --> 00:33:02.514
It's beautiful what you said to me because what I realized now that I didn't see then is that my daughter has a high expectation for my for the nature of my invitation,

505
00:33:02.975 --> 00:33:04.514
and she knows what I'm missing.

506
00:33:04.815 --> 00:33:06.274
And she holds me accountable.

507
00:33:06.790 --> 00:33:09.290
Well, that's actually really good. Yeah. It is good.

508
00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:15.910
At least she spelt it. And so she knows. Yeah. Yeah. So she knows when it's missing. Yeah.

509
00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:24.005
Like, it gives my my heart And it it it was also really good that your stomach flipped and that she probably had indigestion too.

510
00:33:24.005 --> 00:33:28.985
Like it tells us, you know, it just, again, tells us, no, these things go together.

511
00:33:29.525 --> 00:33:32.185
I remember, I think one of the first,

512
00:33:33.285 --> 00:33:38.240
my first coming across literature that totally changed my whole way of thinking here about food,

513
00:33:38.620 --> 00:33:40.159
and and it was so simple,

514
00:33:40.539 --> 00:33:41.039
was,

515
00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:46.400
was the material on on when babies were being fed,

516
00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:51.200
directly in an orphanage without any touch, without any connection, with any contact.

517
00:33:51.475 --> 00:33:56.695
And there this was a Korean orphanage in the in the nineteen fifties after the Korean War, and eighty percent

518
00:33:57.075 --> 00:33:57.575
fatality,

519
00:33:59.154 --> 00:34:03.894
is that there was no surviving, there was no thriving, no thriving for sure, and no surviving

520
00:34:04.530 --> 00:34:09.170
because it needed to be delivered in this. And then more research that said, oh, yes.

521
00:34:09.170 --> 00:34:11.270
Well, babies who are being

522
00:34:13.250 --> 00:34:13.750
breastfed

523
00:34:14.050 --> 00:34:22.235
or or whatever the food is, it's that time after they're being fed when there's connection because it allows a digestive system to work.

524
00:34:22.235 --> 00:34:25.215
You know, the rest that is in that contact and closeness

525
00:34:25.594 --> 00:34:30.574
that was making a difference for the fruit to be able to do its work, again, for caring to be delivered.

526
00:34:30.875 --> 00:34:34.069
And there is just so so much literature as as,

527
00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:35.150
you'll

528
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:41.829
you'll you'll you'll get treated to people. Her book will be coming out shortly in September,

529
00:34:42.289 --> 00:34:44.389
and you'll be treated to just an

530
00:34:44.765 --> 00:34:45.265
amazing

531
00:34:45.645 --> 00:34:50.305
I I think it will be, an absolutely signature piece, groundbreaking

532
00:34:50.685 --> 00:34:51.985
piece in in bringing

533
00:34:52.525 --> 00:34:54.465
of, food togetherness

534
00:34:54.844 --> 00:34:55.745
and care,

535
00:34:56.285 --> 00:34:58.305
back back together again.

536
00:34:58.980 --> 00:35:00.840
Yeah. That's very high priest. Gordon

537
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:05.860
would not be the dream, right? To bring us back to our our roots as caretakers again.

538
00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:09.560
And, you know, the science is all there. It's this that we just don't

539
00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:13.484
have our words around it. It's not close to our heart. It's in our head.

540
00:35:13.484 --> 00:35:15.505
And so we've got to find a way to bring it,

541
00:35:16.125 --> 00:35:17.885
back to that place. And,

542
00:35:18.605 --> 00:35:19.984
and and, you know, to realize

543
00:35:20.765 --> 00:35:21.265
that

544
00:35:21.645 --> 00:35:26.730
the food we serve is actually is actually transformed in the face of care.

545
00:35:26.869 --> 00:35:32.810
When someone feels taken care of and they see your intentions this way, you could actually burn it

546
00:35:33.430 --> 00:35:33.930
and

547
00:35:34.230 --> 00:35:38.495
not, you know, might not be the best food, but they actually feel cared for.

548
00:35:38.495 --> 00:35:44.355
It's actually not the product itself. It's the intentions. It's the emotions. It's the seeing

549
00:35:44.655 --> 00:35:48.915
and and the believing in the intention and the care that is there. It's so

550
00:35:49.295 --> 00:35:52.675
powerful that you can feel full without actually eating anything.

551
00:35:53.310 --> 00:35:57.730
And and I'll bring it back to this to the keynote that I delivered

552
00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.370
by. How nature takes care of us

553
00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:03.490
is by getting us to take care of each other.

554
00:36:03.950 --> 00:36:11.525
And in that in that food delivered in that care then allows nature to take care of us in in yet another way.

555
00:36:11.585 --> 00:36:12.565
Like it just

556
00:36:12.944 --> 00:36:14.085
all all coming

557
00:36:14.464 --> 00:36:15.684
all coming together.

558
00:36:16.305 --> 00:36:17.125
But care,

559
00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:20.520
we can't deliver care without attachment.

560
00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:25.400
The the attachments are absolutely necessary for that system of delivery.

561
00:36:25.859 --> 00:36:26.359
Yeah.

562
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:28.280
Yeah. When I

563
00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:34.975
I was thinking too how it doesn't have to be food itself, but I think about, you know, the act of tea,

564
00:36:35.275 --> 00:36:37.915
you know, of coming together when you said we don't have to be eating.

565
00:36:37.915 --> 00:36:41.855
Well, I think of tea and the ritual of tea and how important that was

566
00:36:42.475 --> 00:36:43.455
in my family

567
00:36:43.835 --> 00:36:44.735
with the pandemic

568
00:36:45.230 --> 00:36:50.130
and them coming home and there being so much alarm and so many things that we didn't

569
00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:52.589
we didn't know what was gonna happen.

570
00:36:52.589 --> 00:36:57.470
We didn't we didn't know what was what what what else was gonna be pulled, you know, kind of out from under us.

571
00:36:57.470 --> 00:36:57.630
And

572
00:36:58.505 --> 00:37:00.685
but the one thing we had was,

573
00:37:00.985 --> 00:37:09.065
I you know, saying, well, we can have tea in the morning, and I will meet you at 07:30 or 08:30 or nine, whatever time we chose the night before.

574
00:37:09.065 --> 00:37:11.325
But there was always this connection point.

575
00:37:11.625 --> 00:37:13.559
And for us, it was,

576
00:37:14.900 --> 00:37:17.700
it it was that tea. It was that time together.

577
00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:24.119
It was a time to gather, and it was a time to feel like this we can rely on. This we can count on.

578
00:37:24.339 --> 00:37:26.440
There can be some rest in this place.

579
00:37:27.299 --> 00:37:27.799
And

580
00:37:28.505 --> 00:37:33.405
and what a gift it was to all of us in that time. And, yeah.

581
00:37:34.185 --> 00:37:37.645
But you put the gap I'm sorry. I was just gonna say you put the gathering first.

582
00:37:37.865 --> 00:37:42.605
So it didn't matter what came after that, you did the gathering. So anything that you bring to that

583
00:37:43.450 --> 00:37:45.310
fulfills the requirement of nourishment.

584
00:37:45.930 --> 00:37:46.430
Yeah.

585
00:37:46.730 --> 00:37:47.230
Yes.

586
00:37:47.770 --> 00:37:48.270
Yes.

587
00:37:48.890 --> 00:37:49.950
Yes. The collecting.

588
00:37:50.410 --> 00:37:50.910
The

589
00:37:51.370 --> 00:37:52.670
the the collecting, the connecting,

590
00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:59.445
and delivering food within that context of of of connection where you're taking care

591
00:38:00.305 --> 00:38:00.805
of

592
00:38:01.425 --> 00:38:07.025
you're giving the most fundamental kind of rest, the rest from making attachments work because you're making the mark.

593
00:38:07.025 --> 00:38:08.645
You're you're taking that.

594
00:38:09.105 --> 00:38:13.770
I was just gonna tell the viewers here as as I I'm very I

595
00:38:14.309 --> 00:38:14.470
I,

596
00:38:15.990 --> 00:38:18.710
I'm privileged to live with with,

597
00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:19.530
within,

598
00:38:21.109 --> 00:38:22.650
just blocks of Deborah

599
00:38:23.030 --> 00:38:24.250
and as she was

600
00:38:24.675 --> 00:38:25.895
writing her book,

601
00:38:26.595 --> 00:38:33.575
I I I just wanna assure you, she lives out what she teaches and preaches. She would deliver the most

602
00:38:34.035 --> 00:38:34.535
amazing

603
00:38:36.195 --> 00:38:38.295
gifts of love and care,

604
00:38:39.110 --> 00:38:43.130
to us, which were just wonder like, in this context

605
00:38:43.830 --> 00:38:46.570
of love and care, were like feasts

606
00:38:47.190 --> 00:38:51.290
to us to be able to enjoy that. But, she was

607
00:38:51.625 --> 00:38:59.165
she was she was and is all in with this, and it's just wonderful to see it coming together

608
00:38:59.865 --> 00:39:02.445
in in such a such a real way.

609
00:39:03.305 --> 00:39:06.205
Well, it's so lovely when someone is so generous in their receiving.

610
00:39:07.839 --> 00:39:11.619
I had no problem with that. It was very fulfilling for me.

611
00:39:11.680 --> 00:39:18.740
You know, I kept as I was, you know, going and working through this material, the one thing that kept coming over and over again is I could

612
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:28.575
and it would just pop in were just the words that and I don't even know where they were said, but just that caring can't feel you can't feel the caring unless it's expressed.

613
00:39:29.515 --> 00:39:34.015
We can hold on to the caring in our heart. We can think of it. We can dream of them. We can plan.

614
00:39:34.155 --> 00:39:38.480
But people can't read our minds. So how do we get the how do we get the cross?

615
00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:44.780
You know? And so what a beautiful opportunity that food gives us because our stomach runs out.

616
00:39:44.780 --> 00:39:49.120
It's not like there's some like snakes where they eat and they don't eat again for another two years.

617
00:39:49.265 --> 00:39:52.565
Like, can you imagine what a disaster that would be for us? That would be a disaster.

618
00:39:53.425 --> 00:39:58.485
We have to eat twice a day often, you know, if we're Foods to food. This is my

619
00:39:59.265 --> 00:40:00.565
But what it'd be The bridge

620
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:09.380
that nature gave us to one to to in all of the separation we have to just bridge with these points of connection again.

621
00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:15.540
It's just so wise to make us have such small stomachs and to burn through this kind of energy quickly.

622
00:40:15.815 --> 00:40:18.715
Yeah. Come yeah. I never thought of it that way. Exactly.

623
00:40:19.975 --> 00:40:20.475
Exactly.

624
00:40:20.775 --> 00:40:21.995
Such small stomachs

625
00:40:22.615 --> 00:40:24.955
that we need to depend upon each other.

626
00:40:25.095 --> 00:40:29.675
Even if we're the one doing the cooking, we still depend upon each other for receptivity,

627
00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:31.920
for the connection,

628
00:40:32.300 --> 00:40:37.520
and, you know, to give the care to receive the care. It's truly that place of

629
00:40:37.980 --> 00:40:38.380
of,

630
00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:39.920
of taking care.

631
00:40:40.460 --> 00:40:40.960
Yeah.

632
00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:42.000
I

633
00:40:43.045 --> 00:40:48.025
I I when you're saying that, it's reminding me of of when my children were younger.

634
00:40:49.125 --> 00:40:55.385
Again, I have these these reflective moments as a parent where, you know, I have some really good parenting moments in reflection,

635
00:40:56.405 --> 00:40:57.465
to what was happening.

636
00:40:57.980 --> 00:40:58.480
And,

637
00:41:00.220 --> 00:41:00.880
I noticed

638
00:41:02.299 --> 00:41:04.880
that both my children had different eating

639
00:41:05.180 --> 00:41:08.720
seemed to have different eating needs. I had one that was a snacker,

640
00:41:09.180 --> 00:41:17.105
and she would seem to need to eat all the the time and and her mood, you know, her emotions would kind of go according to that that schedule.

641
00:41:17.565 --> 00:41:22.545
And I had another one, my other daughter, who could eat a meal and be satiated

642
00:41:22.845 --> 00:41:24.065
for quite some time.

643
00:41:24.740 --> 00:41:27.079
And I noticed that it really actually

644
00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:31.160
parallel their need for dependency in the invitation

645
00:41:31.540 --> 00:41:32.339
from me.

646
00:41:32.339 --> 00:41:38.185
There was one that needed to be the snacker was constantly needing to check-in and, okay, fill up again.

647
00:41:38.185 --> 00:41:43.244
Okay. Go. Oh, hey. Burned it off. Alright. Back again. Back to needing to be filled up.

648
00:41:43.385 --> 00:41:47.805
My other one was it was slower. It was like, okay. Let's have some good meal together.

649
00:41:48.505 --> 00:41:49.964
Enjoy it. You know?

650
00:41:51.240 --> 00:41:54.380
Revel in this for a little while, and then she could go for

651
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:56.460
hours until the next meal.

652
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:05.915
And just that difference in how they were filled up was it mirrored their attachment hunger, you know, of what they needed from me?

653
00:42:05.915 --> 00:42:11.455
And and I started to pay attention to that. Took me a little while, but I started to pay attention.

654
00:42:11.515 --> 00:42:17.140
I go, okay. This makes so much sense. So how do I get in the lead with this? And how do I provide

655
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:19.620
that kind of care that they need?

656
00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:25.780
Yeah. It struck me as I was I was listening to you. Also, Deborah, is

657
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:27.460
in the in the

658
00:42:28.185 --> 00:42:32.605
in the in in my presentation I was dealing with the doctrine of independence

659
00:42:33.865 --> 00:42:39.725
and and how this has been one of the one of the main areas of creating independent eaters

660
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.980
and and how there should be no such thing. Mhmm.

661
00:42:44.839 --> 00:42:47.660
How the independence in eating, like

662
00:42:48.200 --> 00:42:50.940
like all that we know is that the brain is

663
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.505
is taking the cues from those to whom,

664
00:42:54.965 --> 00:42:56.425
you know, we are attached

665
00:42:56.885 --> 00:42:59.545
to what to eat, when to eat, how to eat.

666
00:43:00.085 --> 00:43:03.545
And it it's in this and when we break that,

667
00:43:03.845 --> 00:43:06.250
when the when you don't have that

668
00:43:06.869 --> 00:43:07.369
the

669
00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:11.210
depending upon the alpha carrying, when you don't have that structure,

670
00:43:11.830 --> 00:43:16.790
the the axon to the dendrite, when you don't have that lined up for,

671
00:43:17.430 --> 00:43:18.170
for this,

672
00:43:18.615 --> 00:43:21.195
the the child when they become alpha,

673
00:43:22.055 --> 00:43:26.075
backed into an alpha because it's not safe to depend, the brain goes crazy.

674
00:43:26.375 --> 00:43:30.375
No. No. Only white vegetables. No. Only green. No. Only this. No. Only that.

675
00:43:30.375 --> 00:43:32.875
It goes crazy because it's not meant.

676
00:43:33.080 --> 00:43:39.340
We're not meant to take care of ourselves that way, we're just not meant to do it, our brains aren't meant to do it, it's just

677
00:43:40.040 --> 00:43:44.300
they get obsessed with things and so again to straighten it out,

678
00:43:45.345 --> 00:43:49.605
all of the material that I've seen on anorexia, the only programs that are successful

679
00:43:49.984 --> 00:43:53.365
are the ones that treat the relationship in which the anorexic

680
00:43:53.744 --> 00:43:57.925
is being fed to, to restore and inspire that dependency

681
00:43:58.225 --> 00:44:01.770
upon somebody to take care of them and defeat them. They can't do that.

682
00:44:01.770 --> 00:44:04.750
You can't beat the anorexia, the the eating problem.

683
00:44:04.810 --> 00:44:07.950
And so it's come from this doctrine of independence,

684
00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:12.750
whether it's education and so on. We've been trying to make our children independent

685
00:44:13.050 --> 00:44:16.030
eaters, and that whole doctrine is at the core

686
00:44:16.785 --> 00:44:18.645
of this this toxicity,

687
00:44:19.425 --> 00:44:19.925
this

688
00:44:20.305 --> 00:44:23.525
in our society where food has become our poison.

689
00:44:23.825 --> 00:44:28.165
It's our our need, but it's it's it's out of context

690
00:44:28.704 --> 00:44:30.405
of how it's meant to be delivered.

691
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:35.020
Yeah. And it's, you know, so so important what you just said, Gordon.

692
00:44:35.160 --> 00:44:40.940
One of the things that surprised me through this research, but when you see it, you can't unsee it, is that

693
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:43.260
food can't serve two masters.

694
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:45.340
It can't serve togetherness

695
00:44:45.945 --> 00:44:46.445
and

696
00:44:47.465 --> 00:44:49.485
emotional distress at the same time.

697
00:44:50.025 --> 00:44:54.365
And so the fail safe here into preserving our relationship with food

698
00:44:54.665 --> 00:44:56.125
is that when it is served

699
00:44:56.665 --> 00:44:58.125
in the context of togetherness,

700
00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:03.320
it's serving those emotional needs. But as soon as it's detached from togetherness,

701
00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:05.640
it is the perfect

702
00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.440
drug. It is the perfect

703
00:45:09.060 --> 00:45:10.680
cure and Yeah. I see.

704
00:45:10.990 --> 00:45:12.675
Credit for what is missing.

705
00:45:12.675 --> 00:45:17.655
And when we get into big trouble with our food, it's either alarm based restriction,

706
00:45:18.275 --> 00:45:20.375
too much, too little, and it serves

707
00:45:20.755 --> 00:45:23.335
the master of emotional distress. It's available.

708
00:45:23.750 --> 00:45:24.809
We need it often.

709
00:45:25.190 --> 00:45:28.170
It's like oxygen. You know? So and so

710
00:45:28.790 --> 00:45:32.470
so it's so critical that food be served in emotional

711
00:45:32.869 --> 00:45:33.770
in togetherness.

712
00:45:34.470 --> 00:45:34.950
Right?

713
00:45:35.270 --> 00:45:37.609
Well, it makes perfect sense what you're saying because

714
00:45:37.944 --> 00:45:40.825
when when you eat, when you chew, the saliva is there.

715
00:45:40.825 --> 00:45:44.365
The saliva in a sense, it it it brings the parasympathetic

716
00:45:44.744 --> 00:45:46.684
nervous system. It sends,

717
00:45:48.424 --> 00:45:52.900
like, opiates into the brain. It does all of those things, so it reduces alarm.

718
00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:56.240
So we're eating ourself out of separation alarms.

719
00:45:56.240 --> 00:46:00.180
So, again, it's it's doing this, and it's supposed to be in a place of rest.

720
00:46:00.319 --> 00:46:04.525
It's the worst place we could get is worst thing we could do

721
00:46:05.145 --> 00:46:09.805
is eat to calm our emotion, is to eat to be able to,

722
00:46:10.265 --> 00:46:12.925
to run away from our our emptiness.

723
00:46:13.625 --> 00:46:18.980
I know I've abused food specifically. My brain doesn't even know it. Like, when I'm traveling,

724
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:23.460
I get, you know, and I feel that ache, that hunger, that aloneness,

725
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:25.540
but for me, I think I'm hungry.

726
00:46:26.080 --> 00:46:30.975
Mhmm. And then I eat and only after I eat do I realize it wasn't about that at all.

727
00:46:31.455 --> 00:46:35.955
It was about an ache that cannot be answered through that. It was about the togetherness.

728
00:46:36.095 --> 00:46:42.095
It was about this that I at least have to sit with, make some space with, have some sadness about.

729
00:46:42.095 --> 00:46:46.595
And then I wouldn't try to fill the void with food, which is an abusive food,

730
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:51.900
like eating out of your emotion is an abusive food. And, again, a backwards

731
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:52.940
I mean,

732
00:46:53.240 --> 00:46:54.300
not a backwards, a

733
00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:55.900
a

734
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.500
a a a an argument that comes from a different place, but, again, says why togetherness

735
00:47:02.555 --> 00:47:08.015
must be in a sense met before food is delivered down down into that context.

736
00:47:08.395 --> 00:47:10.655
It is the gathering. It is the togetherness.

737
00:47:10.795 --> 00:47:16.175
It is the invitation to exist in my presence, the twinkle in the eye, the warmth, the collecting.

738
00:47:16.475 --> 00:47:16.975
Now

739
00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:19.600
the food can go down

740
00:47:20.060 --> 00:47:20.560
and

741
00:47:21.020 --> 00:47:21.760
the digestive

742
00:47:22.140 --> 00:47:23.520
system, the ingestion

743
00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:25.440
can be met with digestion,

744
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:33.040
in a way that truly delivers the care that we need. Because otherwise it becomes an attachment fix.

745
00:47:33.315 --> 00:47:37.175
Yes. And when we use it to soothe, then it doesn't satiate.

746
00:47:37.474 --> 00:47:40.454
And then we're all out of whack and it becomes

747
00:47:40.835 --> 00:47:44.055
because it works. That's the whole problem is it works.

748
00:47:44.355 --> 00:47:47.575
And it's also it's not just the opioids. It's the fact that our gastrointestinal

749
00:47:48.090 --> 00:47:52.010
system is made from skin cells. So we're being touched from the inside.

750
00:47:52.010 --> 00:47:53.950
We have oxytocin and vasopressin.

751
00:47:54.490 --> 00:48:02.030
And so we're, but if you think about it, it's beautiful because this system is meant to bring us into rest so we can digest,

752
00:48:02.655 --> 00:48:08.575
but it can also be used to soothe To escape. And as a fix, as an attachment fix when it's missing.

753
00:48:08.575 --> 00:48:14.760
So this is why culture, where ritual, where it has to stay in the lead, we have to be thoughtful about rest.

754
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.740
If we don't put that back into our feeding and eating, we will not

755
00:48:20.120 --> 00:48:25.420
find our way out of this problem. It I just don't see any other way.

756
00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.255
Yeah. Well, and you see, I mean, just what you're talking about makes me think of our cravings.

757
00:48:30.255 --> 00:48:31.714
Right? Even the word cravings.

758
00:48:32.335 --> 00:48:36.115
And, you know, I think of for myself when I'm in that place of

759
00:48:36.415 --> 00:48:42.115
of, you know, there may be a lot of emotion in me, but if I'm not feeling that emotion, if I'm not in touch with that,

760
00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:45.359
I automatically I might have the same kind of brain.

761
00:48:45.359 --> 00:48:48.980
Mine goes to well, the answer must be potato chips.

762
00:48:50.240 --> 00:48:53.859
I don't know what the question was, but the answer must The answer to life is

763
00:48:55.359 --> 00:49:01.105
And it's, you know, it is the sense, and I I love good food. I love good food

764
00:49:01.405 --> 00:49:06.305
when I'm in company, when I'm in a fight. Says is true, people, that she loves food.

765
00:49:06.925 --> 00:49:07.665
All good.

766
00:49:08.940 --> 00:49:09.600
Who doesn't?

767
00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:10.480
Yeah.

768
00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:26.375
And and but but when I'm in that place where I'm I'm feeling a little bit where I'm not feeling actually, I'm feel I'm more of a, you know, restless, and I I'm I'm maybe a little bit alarmed or I'm I'm not sure what to do with myself because I'm not I I don't wanna sit in that void.

769
00:49:26.994 --> 00:49:29.974
And that's where I go. I go to the potato chips.

770
00:49:30.674 --> 00:49:31.174
And

771
00:49:31.635 --> 00:49:32.454
and yet

772
00:49:33.155 --> 00:49:38.660
when I'm in a place and I've gathered my my family together or at least one other, I have good friend over.

773
00:49:38.660 --> 00:49:39.400
I'm making

774
00:49:39.860 --> 00:49:51.800
soup and I'm it's all about what's in the soup and it's nourishing and it's, you know, and what kind of salt are you gonna put on the soup and, you know, it it becomes all about the experience

775
00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:53.000
of it,

776
00:49:53.484 --> 00:49:57.744
Not the not the fix, not the filling this this void.

777
00:49:58.045 --> 00:49:59.025
Mhmm. Yeah.

778
00:49:59.964 --> 00:50:04.145
I realized I forgot to, beautifully said, Tamara. Yeah. That's exactly

779
00:50:04.525 --> 00:50:06.625
it. And so much celebration for the preparation

780
00:50:07.085 --> 00:50:10.060
and how much gathers you to prepare you

781
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:15.580
to share and to also eat. But I forgot, I meant to, tell the story of how,

782
00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:17.580
the sushi with my

783
00:50:18.040 --> 00:50:22.705
grandmother, why I made that decision that I did. And I hadn't done any of this research yet.

784
00:50:22.705 --> 00:50:23.765
I was just basically

785
00:50:24.305 --> 00:50:25.125
what I knew

786
00:50:25.585 --> 00:50:28.005
was that we needed to be in the lead.

787
00:50:28.065 --> 00:50:32.085
And I had a grandma who went down, and my daughter was listening

788
00:50:32.465 --> 00:50:33.840
and heard grandma say,

789
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:38.260
I don't know what to do with her. You need to talk to her. And I'm like, no.

790
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:41.620
Everything inside of me was alarmed because I thought,

791
00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:45.920
oh my gosh, is she gonna run out into the street? Is she gonna follow you?

792
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:50.705
Like, you've just given up everything. It doesn't even matter anymore what she eats.

793
00:50:50.925 --> 00:50:55.025
I've got such a big problem on my hand now. You are the caretaker,

794
00:50:55.645 --> 00:50:56.865
and she's in charge.

795
00:50:57.244 --> 00:50:58.545
And she's a sensitive,

796
00:50:59.210 --> 00:51:03.930
bright child. Yes. She can read you like that. I'm like, oh, grandma's down, man.

797
00:51:03.930 --> 00:51:05.869
The three and a half year old's in charge.

798
00:51:06.010 --> 00:51:09.710
How do I get and so I was thinking, how do I get grandma back into the lead?

799
00:51:10.010 --> 00:51:15.464
Well, make her in charge of the food. Tell her to put me in my place. Okay. But unfortunately,

800
00:51:16.005 --> 00:51:21.765
it wasn't convincing or my daughter was too too perceptive, but it it it provided a bit of a cover.

801
00:51:21.765 --> 00:51:23.704
But that was a sacrificial play.

802
00:51:24.085 --> 00:51:29.440
Sure. Grow food under the bus, whatever. It wasn't my preference, but it wasn't most important.

803
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:31.300
The relationship was the most important.

804
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.140
Being in the lead of the food, being in that sense of generosity, the invitation

805
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:39.540
was more important to me. And I didn't have words for that. I didn't see that.

806
00:51:39.600 --> 00:51:42.100
It was instinctive and obviously being very influenced,

807
00:51:43.194 --> 00:51:47.295
and understanding the critical importance of being the caretaker from,

808
00:51:47.835 --> 00:51:49.135
from the work that we do.

809
00:51:49.515 --> 00:51:53.694
And and you can't you can't divorce. Like, when you think of a culture of food,

810
00:51:54.395 --> 00:51:57.214
when you think of those that have preserved the culture of food,

811
00:51:57.670 --> 00:52:04.950
where the traditional cultures where you see the histories whether it's in Provence whether it's in Italy whether it's it's in Greece.

812
00:52:04.950 --> 00:52:07.290
The thing that that struck me in

813
00:52:07.590 --> 00:52:08.970
during our year at Provence

814
00:52:09.510 --> 00:52:13.985
is that I had never heard a mother ask their child what they wanted to eat. It

815
00:52:15.085 --> 00:52:19.825
it didn't occur in that culture that you ever put a child in the lead.

816
00:52:19.965 --> 00:52:22.625
There can be preferences over all kinds of things.

817
00:52:23.245 --> 00:52:30.640
But when it came to food, it was so basic that if a child is in charge how are they gonna know you care for them?

818
00:52:30.640 --> 00:52:35.920
How are they gonna know that you're the answer to all of the most important questions in their life?

819
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.619
Do I matter? Am I important?

820
00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:39.619
You know, what my belonging,

821
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:42.185
my sameness, how are they to know this?

822
00:52:42.185 --> 00:52:47.465
And so this answer to it and again, I didn't I didn't hear any complaints about it.

823
00:52:47.465 --> 00:52:51.545
And at least at that time, there were far fewer eating disorders in those cultures.

824
00:52:51.545 --> 00:52:52.905
I don't know what it's like now.

825
00:52:52.905 --> 00:52:57.640
I didn't, you know, have been up with the research, but there were very much fewer problems.

826
00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:03.560
But again, it seems that there there's these very strong food cultures. There's there's actually

827
00:53:04.580 --> 00:53:10.675
the idea that you this is a way you lead, You take care of and some absolutely,

828
00:53:11.535 --> 00:53:15.375
you know, it's synonymous for them. I love you through feeding you.

829
00:53:15.375 --> 00:53:17.635
I mean, you could actually feel it from them.

830
00:53:17.855 --> 00:53:23.270
And, you know, and you love me back by by eating what you're fed.

831
00:53:23.730 --> 00:53:27.510
There is no question about this. But there's wisdom in that.

832
00:53:28.050 --> 00:53:29.110
There's absolutely

833
00:53:29.810 --> 00:53:32.310
wisdom in it. In our society,

834
00:53:32.610 --> 00:53:33.510
we cater.

835
00:53:34.210 --> 00:53:35.030
We cater.

836
00:53:35.490 --> 00:53:38.375
We don't feed. We cater to

837
00:53:38.915 --> 00:53:40.615
the the whims, the nuances,

838
00:53:40.915 --> 00:53:45.495
but the brain goes crazy not knowing what it is and what it's looking for.

839
00:53:45.795 --> 00:53:52.010
And what it's looking for, what we're all looking for is to be taken care of, to be loved, to be cared for.

840
00:53:52.230 --> 00:53:57.130
And so the food just comes in through that kind of process. But we we

841
00:53:57.590 --> 00:53:58.890
we cater to

842
00:53:59.350 --> 00:54:01.130
rather than loving through.

843
00:54:01.590 --> 00:54:06.465
And, you know, it's the loving through the the food that

844
00:54:06.765 --> 00:54:07.585
is important.

845
00:54:08.125 --> 00:54:09.185
Yeah. Beautiful.

846
00:54:10.445 --> 00:54:15.345
Yeah. I was just gonna say, I can just be such a subtle difference too. I think even in in

847
00:54:15.670 --> 00:54:19.450
even in with fast food or if you're you're you're getting food. And and

848
00:54:20.070 --> 00:54:25.110
for me, you know, I tend to my children are adults now, and so, you know, I'm asking, well, what would you like?

849
00:54:25.110 --> 00:54:28.070
Well, I decided I'm I'm not doing that this time.

850
00:54:28.070 --> 00:54:32.665
I am just gonna order what I I think you're gonna like, and I'd surprised them anyway.

851
00:54:32.665 --> 00:54:40.605
I didn't they didn't even know I was picking this up for them because they both were going to busy things, and I thought I'm gonna give them a meal that they can take as we left,

852
00:54:40.984 --> 00:54:41.964
a weekend together.

853
00:54:42.505 --> 00:54:47.280
And so I picked them each up something that I thought they would like, and I just said, I I got this for you.

854
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:49.120
I thought you would like it.

855
00:54:49.120 --> 00:54:53.780
And just the energy, they both, you know, texting me later, mom, that was so good.

856
00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:58.980
And I was just, yes. Okay. I they didn't even ask for it. I just brought it.

857
00:54:59.515 --> 00:55:04.234
Just so simple this is a simple shift in that. But it's it's you knowing that.

858
00:55:04.234 --> 00:55:07.595
You see, you're you're reading it. And and that's the difference I wanna make.

859
00:55:07.595 --> 00:55:11.135
I say, well, aren't you taking your cues from your kids? Now wait a minute.

860
00:55:11.195 --> 00:55:13.135
You you're trying to deliver

861
00:55:14.130 --> 00:55:14.869
care through.

862
00:55:15.410 --> 00:55:20.150
And so you're reading your children, but that's different than asking them a bunch of questions.

863
00:55:20.530 --> 00:55:26.445
Because even reading them puts you in charge, your own brain, your caring brain of knowing what it is that would do.

864
00:55:26.605 --> 00:55:28.685
And so it doesn't mean you don't read them.

865
00:55:28.685 --> 00:55:31.965
It doesn't mean that you impose your own preferences on them. Right.

866
00:55:31.965 --> 00:55:35.485
It what it does is you read and you lead instead of following.

867
00:55:35.485 --> 00:55:38.460
And I I think food is a perfect place for that.

868
00:55:38.700 --> 00:55:42.400
The perfect place to communicate, I, you know, that I know

869
00:55:42.700 --> 00:55:46.780
this is your favorite way and your favorite way of having food and you deliver it.

870
00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:53.635
And there's something about it with with with, you know, somebody gets you that it just haunts you to just And one had kohoo.

871
00:55:54.335 --> 00:55:56.755
Yeah. And I got them right. Yeah.

872
00:55:57.535 --> 00:55:58.035
Yeah.

873
00:55:58.415 --> 00:55:59.635
Yeah. So My,

874
00:56:01.615 --> 00:56:05.775
yeah, I mean, it's you always hope that they're gonna accept your offer. Right, Tamara?

875
00:56:05.775 --> 00:56:09.430
You put all this, you know, time and energy into it, and you're just hoping and

876
00:56:09.810 --> 00:56:12.609
you have to leave some room for disappointment in there too. But,

877
00:56:13.329 --> 00:56:14.450
that I send,

878
00:56:14.930 --> 00:56:18.790
jars of food with my daughter back to university to put in her

879
00:56:19.315 --> 00:56:23.655
little refrigerator. And then I started feeding her boyfriend and then they didn't have

880
00:56:24.995 --> 00:56:27.575
any bowls to eat out of. And so I bought them bowls.

881
00:56:27.875 --> 00:56:33.875
And I said, oh, you know, when you probably heated up that butter chicken, the whole floor in your dorm probably smelled like butter chicken.

882
00:56:33.875 --> 00:56:38.559
And oh, he says, I don't mind if it smells like that at all. I was just thinking,

883
00:56:39.019 --> 00:56:43.579
yes, I'm finding my way in, right? Because sometimes you can't go so direct.

884
00:56:43.579 --> 00:56:44.880
Sometimes it's very vulnerable.

885
00:56:45.500 --> 00:56:47.519
And food provides such a beautiful

886
00:56:50.424 --> 00:56:52.605
shield or not necessarily a shield, but

887
00:56:53.145 --> 00:56:56.444
a a bit of a smokescreen. So you're not so direct to the invitation.

888
00:56:56.744 --> 00:56:59.164
That's right. Some people are really, you know,

889
00:56:59.545 --> 00:57:00.684
sensitive. And,

890
00:57:01.385 --> 00:57:05.250
you know, what does it mean to accept someone's invitation? Well, their heart's on the hook.

891
00:57:05.250 --> 00:57:08.790
And we've got to be thoughtful about that. Food is not just a benign,

892
00:57:09.410 --> 00:57:12.230
affair. At least it shouldn't be, right? It's

893
00:57:12.770 --> 00:57:15.190
a way to extend an invitation for relationship.

894
00:57:15.330 --> 00:57:18.070
But food can provide that one step, remove that symbolism

895
00:57:18.595 --> 00:57:21.655
of connection and of care, which for some people can be

896
00:57:22.195 --> 00:57:23.895
a lot easier to take. But

897
00:57:24.275 --> 00:57:25.575
you can really tell

898
00:57:26.755 --> 00:57:32.855
in your relationship as food becomes the relational and emotional currency, what's happening

899
00:57:33.630 --> 00:57:38.130
for a child in a relationship with you and also in their relationships outside.

900
00:57:38.589 --> 00:57:44.270
Sometimes they come home and nothing's changed there, but things have happened in the outside world and their stomachs are off.

901
00:57:44.270 --> 00:57:46.849
And you're just trying to, you know, understand,

902
00:57:47.895 --> 00:57:51.355
you know, through food provides such an incredible lens

903
00:57:51.655 --> 00:57:54.635
through which to view these dynamics. I would I'm just absolutely

904
00:57:54.935 --> 00:57:55.755
Yes. At

905
00:57:56.375 --> 00:57:56.875
its

906
00:57:57.335 --> 00:57:57.975
at its,

907
00:57:58.775 --> 00:58:02.635
at your capacity to read. But of course, you'd never talk about what you see.

908
00:58:02.859 --> 00:58:07.440
You would just change what you do. Well, food is so literal and it's so figurative.

909
00:58:07.820 --> 00:58:13.920
Yeah. It's it's so symbolic and it's so real. Like, it it it goes all the way. It's concrete

910
00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:15.680
and it's metaphorical.

911
00:58:16.145 --> 00:58:20.484
Like it just represents so much and it is. It's just it's

912
00:58:21.425 --> 00:58:26.305
I I I think it's it's the perfect arena. But again, as you said, it's just so underneath our noses.

913
00:58:26.305 --> 00:58:28.005
It's so so close to us.

914
00:58:28.160 --> 00:58:39.360
That's why I think your, your research, your, your book, what you've put together is, is in one sense, so self evident and it should be, I have had the privilege of reading it,

915
00:58:40.080 --> 00:58:45.855
as Deborah has gone along and it's just like, oh, always this, Oh, this goes down so easy.

916
00:58:45.855 --> 00:58:47.235
It's so self evident.

917
00:58:47.535 --> 00:58:50.915
And yet at the same time, if you don't say it, you don't see it.

918
00:58:51.215 --> 00:58:54.495
Like, like in saying it, it brings it together.

919
00:58:54.495 --> 00:59:00.890
And I, I just feel like it we've all of these cooking shows, all of this stuff around food, but but there's a thing missing.

920
00:59:01.510 --> 00:59:05.130
The thing that's missing is it's really not about the food at all.

921
00:59:05.589 --> 00:59:10.410
And and and that's the thing that's missing, and we become food centric. We become food educational.

922
00:59:10.470 --> 00:59:14.125
We become food everything. We've got labels food. And it's not about that.

923
00:59:14.125 --> 00:59:19.664
It's about something else. And and that so I'm so excited for people to be able to

924
00:59:19.964 --> 00:59:21.105
to, you know, to

925
00:59:21.805 --> 00:59:26.845
to read what you have written because you've been sitting on this egg. You're been hatching it.

926
00:59:26.845 --> 00:59:28.145
It's a long time.

927
00:59:28.590 --> 00:59:32.590
Way too long to be pregnant with something, but she's gonna deliver. She has delivered.

928
00:59:32.590 --> 00:59:34.930
It's just a matter of now getting it, bound

929
00:59:35.470 --> 00:59:40.530
and, bound and sent. But it it is that that thing about bringing it together.

930
00:59:41.445 --> 00:59:41.885
And,

931
00:59:42.325 --> 00:59:43.465
and and like me,

932
00:59:44.325 --> 00:59:49.545
it will be like you you'll be nodding your head, nodding your head, and then saying, oh, yeah.

933
00:59:49.685 --> 00:59:54.985
But does my life reflect it? Does my actions reflect it? Am I doing

934
00:59:55.359 --> 00:59:55.680
this?

935
00:59:55.680 --> 01:00:03.540
And that's the part where it it has to integrate because I think if we get food right, much of the other things will follow.

936
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.940
Mhmm. You know? If we can get that right, it it will just unfold.

937
01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:11.705
Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, that's very high praise. And

938
01:00:12.085 --> 01:00:15.305
I, I what I love most is just listening to how

939
01:00:15.685 --> 01:00:20.345
the material moves inside of people because it's what I hear over and over again

940
01:00:20.885 --> 01:00:25.945
is from people is there's this awakening. Right? Like, oh my gosh. It's like a return to something.

941
01:00:26.300 --> 01:00:29.020
Yes. No. That's Awakening is a good a reawakening.

942
01:00:29.020 --> 01:00:33.280
It's so beautiful because it's from within the person. It's nothing that I

943
01:00:33.580 --> 01:00:37.040
necessarily give. It's just some words around things, but people can discover

944
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:42.964
this because it is so innate inside of us. It's meant to be it's nature's gift to us.

945
01:00:43.105 --> 01:00:49.365
You know, my husband, he said, well, you know, Deb, I think it's probably time that I, you know, read a little bit of what you've written here.

946
01:00:51.984 --> 01:00:55.204
Excuse me. For those of you who don't know, he's he's actually in the hospitality

947
01:00:55.505 --> 01:00:55.665
and,

948
01:00:56.380 --> 01:00:56.880
restaurant

949
01:00:57.340 --> 01:01:02.800
business. High restaurant business. I mean, yeah. Okay. So he works for fancy.

950
01:01:02.859 --> 01:01:06.000
We get a fancy steak, a really lovely steak once in a while.

951
01:01:06.300 --> 01:01:07.440
And he was actually

952
01:01:07.740 --> 01:01:08.240
traveling

953
01:01:08.619 --> 01:01:11.520
for his restaurants. So he took the book with him,

954
01:01:11.895 --> 01:01:15.735
and they had a new restaurant opening up in New York. And so he was reading this on the plane.

955
01:01:15.735 --> 01:01:17.035
And he said to me, Deb,

956
01:01:18.295 --> 01:01:19.515
I actually think

957
01:01:20.135 --> 01:01:22.715
that we've got to get the chef out of the kitchen.

958
01:01:24.775 --> 01:01:25.915
I actually think

959
01:01:26.589 --> 01:01:29.490
that we got this wrong. The chef shouldn't be running the kitchen.

960
01:01:29.869 --> 01:01:31.970
He should be talking to people on the floor.

961
01:01:32.430 --> 01:01:36.130
This is where I got this fish from for you. This is where and

962
01:01:36.510 --> 01:01:39.569
they're grown here and, oh, smell them. He said,

963
01:01:40.055 --> 01:01:42.075
we're wasting the chef on the food.

964
01:01:42.855 --> 01:01:45.355
I'm like, oh my gosh. An accountant

965
01:01:45.655 --> 01:01:46.955
in the restaurant business

966
01:01:48.055 --> 01:01:51.175
saw something. I'm like, that's it. That's it.

967
01:01:51.175 --> 01:01:54.520
When you're brought back to your senses about it, it reawakens.

968
01:01:54.579 --> 01:01:58.520
And so that's what I'm looking forward to. And I would I invite people to please

969
01:01:59.060 --> 01:02:03.780
share with me your awakenings. I just that that is the fulfillment and the delight in me.

970
01:02:03.780 --> 01:02:05.560
That's the hope, the wish, and the desire

971
01:02:05.875 --> 01:02:10.435
is I just wanna hear your stories of how it moved you. It's just it's so beautiful.

972
01:02:10.435 --> 01:02:14.135
It's the greatest love story we have is putting together.

973
01:02:14.435 --> 01:02:19.420
It's just Yes. Nourishing just to hear the stories. So, yeah, please send them to me. No.

974
01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:23.840
It is it is the greatest love story when you bring those three together,

975
01:02:25.180 --> 01:02:25.920
the relationship,

976
01:02:26.220 --> 01:02:27.920
food, and care, and

977
01:02:28.220 --> 01:02:29.120
mix it all

978
01:02:29.580 --> 01:02:30.080
into,

979
01:02:30.700 --> 01:02:32.480
you know, to deliver it.

980
01:02:32.780 --> 01:02:37.815
Mhmm. In the context then, of course, the context has to be, as you say, receptivity,

981
01:02:38.835 --> 01:02:43.734
where we are doing the work of attachment. So there's rest. I loved I loved your three r's.

982
01:02:44.115 --> 01:02:44.615
Receptivity,

983
01:02:45.155 --> 01:02:49.299
rest, and where there's ritual in a sense so that that,

984
01:02:49.740 --> 01:02:52.240
that there's time and space. The thing about ritual

985
01:02:53.099 --> 01:02:53.420
and,

986
01:02:55.180 --> 01:02:56.079
is is

987
01:02:56.539 --> 01:02:58.720
is that it's a way of preserving

988
01:02:59.585 --> 01:03:00.404
and protecting

989
01:03:00.785 --> 01:03:02.484
the important from the urgent.

990
01:03:02.944 --> 01:03:07.744
Mhmm. And and food should never be urgent, and you know it has been. Right?

991
01:03:07.744 --> 01:03:11.045
It's it's it's it's what we fit into the spaces

992
01:03:11.510 --> 01:03:15.510
that we have to do just because we eat, and it should never be this way.

993
01:03:15.510 --> 01:03:22.089
Food needs to be ritualized to protect the important from the urgent because the important here is

994
01:03:22.390 --> 01:03:24.730
the context of gathering, of collecting,

995
01:03:25.355 --> 01:03:27.375
of of resting in that connection

996
01:03:27.835 --> 01:03:33.375
of the digestive system opening of the of the, you know, of what I

997
01:03:33.994 --> 01:03:36.655
imagine as as, again, the the dendrites.

998
01:03:37.035 --> 01:03:37.694
You know?

999
01:03:38.155 --> 01:03:40.710
Oh, okay. We're receiving. We're receiving.

1000
01:03:41.490 --> 01:03:41.990
Incoming.

1001
01:03:42.370 --> 01:03:43.910
Yeah. Incoming. Incoming.

1002
01:03:44.210 --> 01:03:47.590
And so it's all into that receptive mode.

1003
01:03:49.330 --> 01:03:52.790
Well, it makes me think there's a couple things that makes me think of here.

1004
01:03:54.765 --> 01:03:57.105
One, I just wanna say when you're talking about the receptivity

1005
01:03:57.724 --> 01:04:04.385
and the dendrites, and I think, you know, I think of my own experience at school and so many children as a school counselor,

1006
01:04:04.924 --> 01:04:08.145
so many children who would have stomach aches at school

1007
01:04:08.730 --> 01:04:12.510
and and myself experiencing that. And that whole idea of receptivity,

1008
01:04:12.890 --> 01:04:15.630
you know, when you think of children going to school

1009
01:04:16.090 --> 01:04:19.710
and often eating by themselves or eating when they feel,

1010
01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:23.785
you know, alarmed because maybe what's going on around them. There's too many people.

1011
01:04:23.785 --> 01:04:28.025
There's too many noises. For me, the sound of cafeteria just about put me over the edge.

1012
01:04:28.025 --> 01:04:32.685
And often there's places there's not even cafeterias or places to eat anymore. And

1013
01:04:33.065 --> 01:04:37.065
and and often the teachers are eating by themselves, and the and the kids are eating.

1014
01:04:37.065 --> 01:04:40.099
And and it's not a place where it feels

1015
01:04:40.720 --> 01:04:42.099
like there's an

1016
01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:44.799
you know, when you talk about you're in two places.

1017
01:04:44.799 --> 01:04:48.339
It's like the alarm brings those dendrites up, and it's like,

1018
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:52.180
nope. Can't digest this right now. Can't take in food.

1019
01:04:52.319 --> 01:04:58.135
And so you get, you know, kids coming home with their and their lunchbox is still full or saying I just wasn't hungry.

1020
01:04:58.135 --> 01:04:58.635
And

1021
01:04:59.415 --> 01:05:04.475
we we're not we're not remembering that this also was true in those learning environments.

1022
01:05:04.935 --> 01:05:07.109
How do we create? I think it's

1023
01:05:07.410 --> 01:05:15.490
some beautiful food programs that I know of that, you know, maybe whether it's, like, elders coming and and preparing, you know, breakfast for the for the students.

1024
01:05:15.490 --> 01:05:15.990
And

1025
01:05:17.330 --> 01:05:19.109
and and it's in such a different

1026
01:05:19.434 --> 01:05:25.454
a different way of offering that or the teacher being able to sit and gather together with the students

1027
01:05:25.755 --> 01:05:29.375
for for the meal time. We think that we can kind of compartmentalize

1028
01:05:29.755 --> 01:05:32.095
that and push it aside and yet,

1029
01:05:33.160 --> 01:05:36.220
oh, we need to be at rest. We need to be in that place where receptive.

1030
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:40.600
I mean, that's about food and talk about receptive to learning. It's the same idea. Right?

1031
01:05:40.600 --> 01:05:43.500
We need to feel safe. We need to feel like we can depend.

1032
01:05:44.200 --> 01:05:49.755
Mhmm. That just that really struck me. Well, I think to your point, the context really matters.

1033
01:05:49.815 --> 01:05:53.035
And what the research clearly shows is that

1034
01:05:53.495 --> 01:05:58.875
we, our children are learning about food increasingly so outside the home from substitute

1035
01:05:59.415 --> 01:06:01.595
adults who are now part of that equation.

1036
01:06:02.049 --> 01:06:06.049
And so what do those adults bring? It's not simply about what happens in the home anymore.

1037
01:06:06.049 --> 01:06:08.710
It's our preschools, it's our daycares and our schools.

1038
01:06:09.010 --> 01:06:12.789
Now, some countries in the world actually have food programs and very institutionalized

1039
01:06:13.089 --> 01:06:17.235
food programs that embed their culture in that. Canada actually doesn't have that.

1040
01:06:17.315 --> 01:06:20.215
We're one of the the, we're one of a few

1041
01:06:20.675 --> 01:06:22.295
so called advanced developed

1042
01:06:22.595 --> 01:06:24.855
nations that actually don't have a food program

1043
01:06:25.235 --> 01:06:26.055
for our children.

1044
01:06:26.435 --> 01:06:27.895
But it begs the idea,

1045
01:06:28.275 --> 01:06:33.660
you know, to start to think about and, you know, and BC is actually going to roll out a $214,000,000

1046
01:06:33.660 --> 01:06:36.220
food program in schools in the next three years.

1047
01:06:36.220 --> 01:06:39.900
But what are the questions that must come with that? It's not simply about the food.

1048
01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:44.480
They're rolling out money for food. That's not the focus. What are we going to do about the context?

1049
01:06:44.505 --> 01:06:45.884
Who are they eating with?

1050
01:06:46.025 --> 01:06:51.325
One of the things that hasn't been looked at is the impact of pure orientation on eating habits in our children.

1051
01:06:51.545 --> 01:06:57.930
They are more receptive to wanting to eat like, be like other people, get food from outside sources or not eat at all.

1052
01:06:58.170 --> 01:07:03.710
Follow our our you know, eating disorders is the number behind opioid use is the single

1053
01:07:04.010 --> 01:07:04.510
most,

1054
01:07:05.849 --> 01:07:06.349
responsible

1055
01:07:06.730 --> 01:07:07.869
mental health issue

1056
01:07:08.170 --> 01:07:08.670
for,

1057
01:07:09.530 --> 01:07:10.030
fatalities.

1058
01:07:12.065 --> 01:07:13.765
Ten percent of the world's population

1059
01:07:14.385 --> 01:07:18.964
is estimated to have an eating disorder, and twenty percent will die without treatment.

1060
01:07:19.424 --> 01:07:23.204
This is a huge issue. And but if you don't understand peer orientation,

1061
01:07:23.665 --> 01:07:26.400
if if you don't understand who is meant to be the influencer,

1062
01:07:27.100 --> 01:07:32.320
like, we used to be able to you used to be able there was research done with Margaret Mead and Kurt Lewin,

1063
01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:36.880
which basically looked in in World War two. How do we get people to eat organ meats?

1064
01:07:37.265 --> 01:07:42.165
Because we've got to eat all of the we've got to eat what we have and and save

1065
01:07:42.465 --> 01:07:47.605
stuff to send to the war for our people, our troops. And so they wanted to change eating behavior.

1066
01:07:47.905 --> 01:08:00.180
And what the research found, Margaret Mead and Curt Lewin found that if you want to change what people are eating, you have to go to the caretaker in the home and convince them that people should be eating something differently, that the doorway, the gateway to the home was through the caretaker.

1067
01:08:00.720 --> 01:08:01.365
What would happen

1068
01:08:03.365 --> 01:08:05.625
we find such a robust finding?

1069
01:08:06.005 --> 01:08:08.585
I wonder, actually, if we would. That is presuming

1070
01:08:08.885 --> 01:08:11.945
that the caretaker is in the lead in the home this way. That's right.

1071
01:08:12.005 --> 01:08:14.585
I don't think because of the generations of parentation

1072
01:08:15.410 --> 01:08:19.189
since World War two, I'm not sure we'd still find that. We have influencers

1073
01:08:19.570 --> 01:08:24.850
now Yes. That come in and we have competing attachments now when it comes to feeding and eating.

1074
01:08:24.850 --> 01:08:29.075
It's a disaster. And, again, celebrities lead in the food. Like, and that's it.

1075
01:08:29.075 --> 01:08:36.854
Your your your little video clip showed even in terms of wanting to eat with them, you know, is is but their celebrities are eating or

1076
01:08:37.235 --> 01:08:38.195
are are sharing with it.

1077
01:08:38.195 --> 01:08:43.380
And again, all they wanted to do is have eat in the context of the family because intuitively,

1078
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:48.340
that's how it unfolds. But to your point about the research,

1079
01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:52.739
sometimes I wonder if if we get too far off track

1080
01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:56.024
that research doesn't even ask the right questions. Yeah.

1081
01:08:56.024 --> 01:09:00.364
And so it can't even measure that because it's not even asking about that.

1082
01:09:00.505 --> 01:09:06.045
Like, when we got off off track with sex, we were no longer asking questions about relationship.

1083
01:09:06.745 --> 01:09:09.005
You know? Like, we divorce sex and relationship. We divorce food and

1084
01:09:16.130 --> 01:09:20.770
science loves to tease apart all of these things so it can study it. It doesn't want it together.

1085
01:09:20.770 --> 01:09:26.335
It it teases apart and then it studies it. But the thing is, it was never meant to be brought apart.

1086
01:09:26.555 --> 01:09:33.354
It it's, you know, it's like it it it's like cutting the root off of a plant to study it and and wait a minute.

1087
01:09:33.354 --> 01:09:34.415
The life is gone.

1088
01:09:35.354 --> 01:09:37.050
You know, you you can't do that.

1089
01:09:38.010 --> 01:09:40.750
There is something that's holistic about this and

1090
01:09:41.290 --> 01:09:45.469
and science has a hard time with putting those things back together

1091
01:09:45.770 --> 01:09:51.469
and and into context of where where we're meant to, to ask those kind of questions.

1092
01:09:53.835 --> 01:09:56.014
Yeah. Well, the context is so important.

1093
01:09:56.074 --> 01:09:59.534
And I think there's some comments coming in, you know, and even just talking about

1094
01:09:59.914 --> 01:10:03.275
their own experiences in the school cafeteria or at school.

1095
01:10:03.275 --> 01:10:08.014
And if so for some, you know, someone shared, well, the school cafeteria always felt like,

1096
01:10:08.590 --> 01:10:18.050
you know, felt like a warm inviting place because my father used to, you know, I used to eat with him in the hospital where he worked in the cafeteria, you know, and there's so much about the connection

1097
01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:19.410
to that.

1098
01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:22.455
It's it's whether it's,

1099
01:10:23.255 --> 01:10:27.115
a place of rest for you or whether it's a place of alarm for you.

1100
01:10:27.575 --> 01:10:28.075
And

1101
01:10:28.455 --> 01:10:29.755
I think we,

1102
01:10:30.455 --> 01:10:33.515
you know, what we've been talking about is we strip the context

1103
01:10:34.135 --> 01:10:34.875
from everything.

1104
01:10:35.890 --> 01:10:36.390
Well,

1105
01:10:36.770 --> 01:10:40.710
and and we can't do anything without context. It's all about the connection.

1106
01:10:40.770 --> 01:10:48.290
And that was my other I'm remembering now that was my other piece that I wanted to say, Deborah, to what when you were talking about the chef that came out on the floor or,

1107
01:10:49.055 --> 01:10:51.135
your husband was saying, oh, we gotta get him out on the floor.

1108
01:10:51.135 --> 01:10:55.795
It was reminding me of of our own experiences sometimes, the place we go.

1109
01:10:57.535 --> 01:10:58.195
It's a faculty,

1110
01:10:58.735 --> 01:11:01.235
have in the past with this amazing chef.

1111
01:11:01.775 --> 01:11:02.275
And

1112
01:11:03.079 --> 01:11:06.599
and he does. He comes out and he just he'll tell you where it all came from.

1113
01:11:06.599 --> 01:11:10.940
This vegetable came from the garden. This came from down the street. This chicken is from this farm.

1114
01:11:11.320 --> 01:11:17.765
And you feel just this connection to your food in a way that is so different than how we normally do it.

1115
01:11:17.765 --> 01:11:25.625
So it's not just a connection to the to the food and the chef who made it, but also a connection to where the food came from.

1116
01:11:26.485 --> 01:11:32.350
Yeah. And all of our packaging, all of our you know, coming from far away, we become so disconnected

1117
01:11:32.730 --> 01:11:33.470
from it.

1118
01:11:34.010 --> 01:11:34.910
That too,

1119
01:11:35.370 --> 01:11:36.670
we lose so much.

1120
01:11:36.970 --> 01:11:39.070
Well, it's depersonalized and it's dehumanized.

1121
01:11:39.290 --> 01:11:45.070
And so how can something that has given its life for us nourish us in such an impersonal way?

1122
01:11:45.325 --> 01:11:48.785
It's a it's a tragedy for whatever living living being,

1123
01:11:49.645 --> 01:11:50.385
you know,

1124
01:11:51.005 --> 01:11:55.025
gave its life. And when we focus on nutrition and the whole nutritionism

1125
01:11:55.325 --> 01:12:00.390
that has just taken over, where the focus is always on the food and what's in it,

1126
01:12:00.790 --> 01:12:04.410
It's so detached from place and culture and history.

1127
01:12:05.190 --> 01:12:17.735
You know, it's like we we worry so much about the food that we serve and what's in it that we we have no we've lost the plot that it food actually is meant to serve our relationships,

1128
01:12:18.035 --> 01:12:23.575
but not just with ourself, but with others, but with land and with place and that beautiful reciprocity

1129
01:12:24.115 --> 01:12:28.855
that, you know, one of the best books written on this is Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer.

1130
01:12:29.050 --> 01:12:35.150
And just that reciprocity that comes if we live with gratitude for the living things that have given

1131
01:12:35.610 --> 01:12:40.270
their life so that we can thrive, then we in turn want to take care of the living world.

1132
01:12:40.410 --> 01:12:44.585
So how are we going to find our way through things? Like food is connected to everything.

1133
01:12:44.585 --> 01:12:48.985
You tease on a thread and you find out the entire universe is connected to it.

1134
01:12:48.985 --> 01:12:52.205
How do you have children fall in love,

1135
01:12:52.745 --> 01:12:54.005
with the,

1136
01:12:54.745 --> 01:12:58.300
with the place that they're in? Well, food is such a natural match maker.

1137
01:12:58.300 --> 01:13:03.580
Of course, you want to take care of the land that you live on because it gives to you and it nourishes you.

1138
01:13:03.580 --> 01:13:04.560
So you can't

1139
01:13:05.180 --> 01:13:05.840
you can't

1140
01:13:06.220 --> 01:13:08.000
like, it opens the door

1141
01:13:08.380 --> 01:13:10.000
to so much healing

1142
01:13:10.785 --> 01:13:11.525
through relationship,

1143
01:13:12.465 --> 01:13:13.605
that I just think,

1144
01:13:14.065 --> 01:13:16.085
if we could just turn our eyes

1145
01:13:16.465 --> 01:13:17.344
180

1146
01:13:17.344 --> 01:13:17.844
degrees,

1147
01:13:18.385 --> 01:13:20.485
I think we could find some real answers

1148
01:13:20.945 --> 01:13:25.205
to the things that plague us, today that we're struggling to find answers to.

1149
01:13:25.670 --> 01:13:31.770
I was smiling while you were talking because I was imagining in my head new labels being put on food.

1150
01:13:32.870 --> 01:13:33.370
Please,

1151
01:13:33.990 --> 01:13:34.490
only

1152
01:13:36.150 --> 01:13:37.770
serve this food in the context

1153
01:13:38.764 --> 01:13:39.264
of,

1154
01:13:39.885 --> 01:13:42.065
of a caring connection. You know?

1155
01:13:42.525 --> 01:13:43.025
Like,

1156
01:13:44.284 --> 01:13:45.244
yes. Yeah.

1157
01:13:45.244 --> 01:13:52.224
Well, those those movements now that you know, I remember when the squeeze bottles came out and they with all the hype because the babies could feed themselves.

1158
01:13:52.490 --> 01:13:55.950
You know, like they could hold it and squeeze it. And I just thought, oh,

1159
01:13:56.570 --> 01:14:00.910
oh, we are going wrong here. No. How can we provide that? And,

1160
01:14:01.610 --> 01:14:05.070
yeah, I just well and and with that, I think one of the big

1161
01:14:05.655 --> 01:14:08.715
big pieces is you you're talking about the receptivity, Deborah,

1162
01:14:09.095 --> 01:14:10.395
and how frustrated

1163
01:14:10.775 --> 01:14:13.595
it can be when we're not able to satiate

1164
01:14:14.055 --> 01:14:18.555
our children, when we feel like there is the demands. You know, I think of your handshaker.

1165
01:14:18.695 --> 01:14:19.275
You know?

1166
01:14:20.100 --> 01:14:22.520
I want a ham chicker or whatever she said.

1167
01:14:22.580 --> 01:14:26.280
It's not like a cross between chicken fingers and hamburger or something.

1168
01:14:27.380 --> 01:14:29.240
A new food item. Yeah.

1169
01:14:29.780 --> 01:14:31.160
It's not a bad idea.

1170
01:14:32.655 --> 01:14:40.275
But it's it's like you can it can be so frustrating when you feel like you can't provide because you're just meeting that demand.

1171
01:14:41.135 --> 01:14:41.635
And,

1172
01:14:42.335 --> 01:14:43.235
I just Yes.

1173
01:14:43.935 --> 01:14:47.070
It's hard to get. When the synapse isn't there. No.

1174
01:14:47.070 --> 01:14:51.230
You know, again, the other half, it's not hooked up. We we we don't have it.

1175
01:14:51.230 --> 01:14:53.250
The umbilical cord is not hooked up.

1176
01:14:53.790 --> 01:14:55.230
The care isn't being delivered.

1177
01:14:55.230 --> 01:15:02.555
And again, this is the part is we can get all of this stuff rather adult centric about how to do it, you know, what to do in all of this.

1178
01:15:02.555 --> 01:15:07.855
And again, the bottom line is we've got to invite the dependency of our child.

1179
01:15:07.995 --> 01:15:13.135
If we can't invite that by saying I'll take care of you, if we can't embrace that dependency,

1180
01:15:13.515 --> 01:15:15.695
there's nothing to deliver our care through.

1181
01:15:16.000 --> 01:15:17.199
That's the bottom line.

1182
01:15:17.199 --> 01:15:23.920
If we don't say to each other, I mean, even as as partners and friends, like, if we don't have the add I will take care of you.

1183
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:27.460
We don't even have a starter. Yeah. Like, this is the beginning

1184
01:15:28.594 --> 01:15:34.195
that you know? And so we invite the dependents. You can lean on me. You can trust on in me.

1185
01:15:34.195 --> 01:15:40.995
And the dependents for the relational needs are are are the core, are the basic, are the are are the ones that will never go away.

1186
01:15:40.995 --> 01:15:42.355
And so, again, it's just

1187
01:15:43.190 --> 01:15:53.909
it's like everything else, you know, is is that it becomes about food, it becomes about feeding, it becomes all of this in our society about getting all of this and trying to get it right when it really is weight.

1188
01:15:53.909 --> 01:15:57.285
The most important part here has not been attended to,

1189
01:15:57.685 --> 01:16:03.305
And that is making sure that your your child is looking to you to be the answer.

1190
01:16:03.525 --> 01:16:06.745
If they're looking to you to be the answer, food will automatically

1191
01:16:07.125 --> 01:16:10.320
be delivered through this and will, you know, in care.

1192
01:16:10.320 --> 01:16:13.139
But they must look to you to be the answer to their relational

1193
01:16:13.599 --> 01:16:15.380
and togetherness needs.

1194
01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:16.320
Yeah.

1195
01:16:16.320 --> 01:16:23.380
I think that the tricky part and, you know, I think about the times that I've struggled as a parent or working with parents in my practice is that

1196
01:16:24.244 --> 01:16:26.665
because food is so necessary for survival,

1197
01:16:27.125 --> 01:16:39.449
that when our children aren't receptive, or we can't, or we don't feel that we're getting the health, you know, or nutrition benefits or whatever it is into our kids, that we get so alarmed as parents because

1198
01:16:39.910 --> 01:16:42.650
there are those instincts in us to say, hold on,

1199
01:16:43.190 --> 01:16:47.805
you know, we're not on top of our job or whatever it is, whether we are or not.

1200
01:16:47.965 --> 01:16:50.445
Those instincts get to work and those emotions get to work.

1201
01:16:50.445 --> 01:16:52.785
And we get very alarmed and we get very frustrated.

1202
01:16:53.245 --> 01:16:56.625
And we dig in more to be able to figure this out.

1203
01:16:56.765 --> 01:17:03.680
But the more that we dig in or if we give up, the more frustrated we get, the more separation there is and the less we have to work with.

1204
01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:10.740
And so I think alarm, you know, I think food is a very tricky issue for us parents because it's so close to survival.

1205
01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:13.780
We get so scared about it. That was my biggest preoccupation.

1206
01:17:14.320 --> 01:17:17.220
I had two preoccupations when my kids were born, babies.

1207
01:17:17.360 --> 01:17:20.855
Number one, how do I get this breastfeeding to get kicked off?

1208
01:17:20.855 --> 01:17:26.054
And number two, how do I make sure they know I love them and that the bond is happening here?

1209
01:17:26.054 --> 01:17:37.180
So when you start to get food problems that can happen because of alarm and other issues potentially outside the home or whatever might be going on, Like as we saw, you know, COVID just setting things on fire

1210
01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:43.020
on top of separation that was probably already there in a child's life just exacerbated it.

1211
01:17:43.240 --> 01:17:43.980
Then then

1212
01:17:44.360 --> 01:17:48.040
what can happen is we go into this mode where, okay, well, just tell me what you want to eat.

1213
01:17:48.040 --> 01:17:53.085
Just tell me what I can serve. How do I just need to get and it's very easy, I think, to tip

1214
01:17:53.465 --> 01:17:54.125
the relationship

1215
01:17:54.425 --> 01:17:56.525
upside down. Yes. Get alarmed

1216
01:17:56.985 --> 01:17:59.305
because this is so necessary for survival.

1217
01:17:59.305 --> 01:18:04.210
And so one of the challenges is with eating issues, whatever that might be, is how

1218
01:18:04.510 --> 01:18:09.650
to see ourselves as the answer again when we feel so alarmed that somehow we have failed.

1219
01:18:10.030 --> 01:18:14.450
Ask the mother who is challenged to breastfeed their child right off the bat.

1220
01:18:14.670 --> 01:18:16.830
New moms are just tormented by this.

1221
01:18:16.830 --> 01:18:20.635
If this is their agenda, they wanna breastfeed when it doesn't take.

1222
01:18:20.695 --> 01:18:23.035
They feel they failed at the very get go.

1223
01:18:23.415 --> 01:18:30.635
And so, you know, but the message of, look, if you're holding on to your baby and we can find other ways here, it's just we're going to find our way through.

1224
01:18:31.015 --> 01:18:32.635
But when we just are so

1225
01:18:33.060 --> 01:18:35.880
food obsessed, it's all about nutritionism.

1226
01:18:36.340 --> 01:18:40.920
We lose the plot and we become more and more alarmed and we become more and more disconnected

1227
01:18:41.699 --> 01:18:42.520
from this

1228
01:18:43.060 --> 01:18:46.520
this invitation for dependence. We lose it. We lose the dance.

1229
01:18:47.145 --> 01:18:50.365
Yeah. We lose sight of it. We lose sight of the fact that they

1230
01:18:51.465 --> 01:18:52.205
meant to.

1231
01:18:52.585 --> 01:18:55.805
And and and when we have lost a dance and it's and

1232
01:18:56.825 --> 01:18:59.885
and the child is full of demands or preferences, again,

1233
01:19:00.265 --> 01:19:02.365
turning it back around is

1234
01:19:03.410 --> 01:19:06.070
is is more taking the lead with it.

1235
01:19:06.130 --> 01:19:12.870
Like, if you know this is the only food that goes into a child, if you know that all they're gonna eat is chicken fingers, if that's what it is,

1236
01:19:13.250 --> 01:19:14.390
then turn it around

1237
01:19:14.770 --> 01:19:16.790
and say, I've got a great idea.

1238
01:19:16.955 --> 01:19:22.175
I've decided you're gonna have chicken fingers for for, you know, and I'm gonna serve you like, turn it around.

1239
01:19:22.635 --> 01:19:26.335
Take the lead. Take the lead when you know, you know, I mean, inside,

1240
01:19:26.715 --> 01:19:27.855
you know, you're,

1241
01:19:28.395 --> 01:19:34.210
you know, it it it's you're taking the cues from, but that's where I mean. It's okay to read it.

1242
01:19:34.210 --> 01:19:39.010
And if your child is full of preferences and full of demands and and is what,

1243
01:19:40.370 --> 01:19:42.469
what we often call a picky eater,

1244
01:19:42.805 --> 01:19:45.385
It's taking the lead, not just going,

1245
01:19:45.765 --> 01:19:51.065
oh, alright. I wish you would try something else. You know? Like, go around, be generous

1246
01:19:51.845 --> 01:20:02.030
with with being able to deliver your care through that little space that the child gives you, but take the lead in it because this is the part to get that dance back.

1247
01:20:02.170 --> 01:20:07.530
Unless you have got the dance and, you know, you're doing this, then nothing is gonna go right.

1248
01:20:07.530 --> 01:20:13.310
And food is the best way to do this because you you can feel it when it's not right with food.

1249
01:20:13.785 --> 01:20:17.645
Yeah. It it reminds me what you're saying too about

1250
01:20:18.105 --> 01:20:20.045
you know, I think for my my own

1251
01:20:20.585 --> 01:20:26.605
daughter, my youngest was was she was quite sensitive too, and so the taste felt very intense for her.

1252
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:29.120
And, you know, I I I did initially.

1253
01:20:29.120 --> 01:20:32.100
I was, you know, frustrated that she wasn't eating, you know, some of the same

1254
01:20:32.480 --> 01:20:42.255
foods, some kind of the more complex foods because we'd have, you know, pad thai and different things like this, which is a lot of intense flavors when you're not, you know, used to that.

1255
01:20:42.475 --> 01:20:42.975
And

1256
01:20:43.515 --> 01:20:46.875
and but what I what I realized is she liked all the components of it.

1257
01:20:46.875 --> 01:20:52.315
And so I would when we had it, I would create cook the same food, and I just give her I wouldn't ask her.

1258
01:20:52.315 --> 01:20:59.910
I just give her the noodles, and I give her the the bean sprouts and I, you know, I give her the peanuts and, you know, what all the different pieces of it.

1259
01:21:00.210 --> 01:21:00.710
And

1260
01:21:01.090 --> 01:21:02.310
and she ate that.

1261
01:21:02.930 --> 01:21:04.470
And then she got to the point

1262
01:21:05.010 --> 01:21:07.190
eventually that she could eat them together.

1263
01:21:07.555 --> 01:21:15.635
And so there was a time, you know, and I think because I wasn't fighting it, I was just allowing it to unfold, and I kept just providing that for her.

1264
01:21:15.635 --> 01:21:19.335
And then one time, she just tried to mix it together herself, you know.

1265
01:21:19.929 --> 01:21:24.270
And and then all of a sudden, it's there. And so even when there is that sensitivity,

1266
01:21:25.530 --> 01:21:29.130
you know, getting in the lead of it, you know, yes. We're gonna eat.

1267
01:21:29.130 --> 01:21:32.190
We're gonna have a toast with peanut butter and honey for breakfast

1268
01:21:32.595 --> 01:21:33.095
again

1269
01:21:34.195 --> 01:21:37.395
because it's not the most wonderful thing to have for breakfast. Right?

1270
01:21:37.395 --> 01:21:42.275
Until they you know, maybe there might be a little bit of space and and understanding that too.

1271
01:21:42.275 --> 01:21:43.575
But yeah. Yeah.

1272
01:21:43.875 --> 01:21:48.295
But I love the, I love what you're saying about the invitation that comes from you and the generosity.

1273
01:21:48.330 --> 01:21:48.830
Room

1274
01:21:49.250 --> 01:21:49.750
that

1275
01:21:50.170 --> 01:21:52.410
children still need to have around choosing,

1276
01:21:53.050 --> 01:21:54.090
what their favorites are.

1277
01:21:54.090 --> 01:21:58.990
From what we provide, children still have autonomy in tasting things, smelling things.

1278
01:21:59.690 --> 01:22:04.625
In every family, we may eat similar foods, but everybody has a particular preference.

1279
01:22:04.625 --> 01:22:09.125
I remember my daughter once did this little thing for kindergarten. It was her favorite foods.

1280
01:22:09.345 --> 01:22:14.245
What was hilarious about it actually was that she had four quadrants for her favorite foods.

1281
01:22:14.465 --> 01:22:16.005
And every one of the quadrant

1282
01:22:16.545 --> 01:22:17.045
was

1283
01:22:17.370 --> 01:22:21.710
what one member in the family was their favorite. So she had pasta.

1284
01:22:22.810 --> 01:22:25.310
I think her she did for my husband's steak.

1285
01:22:26.010 --> 01:22:28.170
For my other daughter, I can't remember what it was.

1286
01:22:28.170 --> 01:22:33.054
And for me, I'm embarrassed to say, but maybe not. I had a lime margarita.

1287
01:22:35.594 --> 01:22:40.255
And my teacher showed me this, and she goes, I don't think she's having lime margarita.

1288
01:22:41.594 --> 01:22:45.455
I know that would be me. That's my daughter. That's my husband, and that's her.

1289
01:22:45.590 --> 01:22:50.329
You must have been making a lot of pleasant noises as you drank that live margarita. Yeah.

1290
01:22:50.550 --> 01:22:53.130
Why wouldn't one not make pleasant noises? It is. It is.

1291
01:22:54.230 --> 01:22:54.469
Margarita.

1292
01:22:54.469 --> 01:22:59.929
But this whole idea is that within a family constellation, there should be an invitation for children to explore

1293
01:23:00.235 --> 01:23:02.095
their own taste, their own preferences,

1294
01:23:02.555 --> 01:23:03.375
but to have

1295
01:23:03.755 --> 01:23:08.555
command and demand over what is served and how it's served when it's served. No.

1296
01:23:08.555 --> 01:23:17.510
You know, Ellen Satter very much talks about this, you know, division of responsibility where children are absolutely give the should have autonomy over what they find,

1297
01:23:17.890 --> 01:23:19.970
and enjoy and how much they wanna eat.

1298
01:23:19.970 --> 01:23:26.390
But don't confuse that autonomy beyond that because that's where the insecurity lies, because we need this dance of dependency.

1299
01:23:26.645 --> 01:23:32.885
So it's like play, you know, kids decide what they want to do with play, but it's not a free for all and playtime every time, right?

1300
01:23:32.885 --> 01:23:37.785
We have, we have a rhythm and an order for the day. It's not playtime when it's time to go to bed.

1301
01:23:37.844 --> 01:23:40.965
So there has to be a container. There has to be a structure within.

1302
01:23:40.965 --> 01:23:46.320
And that's where the rituals come in And you create those. You could create the what, when, and how

1303
01:23:46.700 --> 01:23:50.480
you create those. And if the attachment is there, then within it,

1304
01:23:50.780 --> 01:23:52.880
there is lot of of latitude

1305
01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:56.160
and, and the will can be expressed. But,

1306
01:23:57.075 --> 01:24:01.815
but you you the the basic the basics there, care togetherness,

1307
01:24:02.595 --> 01:24:04.755
and and the the,

1308
01:24:05.955 --> 01:24:09.015
the the food that you've you've decided.

1309
01:24:09.550 --> 01:24:10.050
Mhmm.

1310
01:24:11.310 --> 01:24:11.810
Yeah.

1311
01:24:12.750 --> 01:24:17.250
Well, as we're getting close here to the end of our our time, I just wonder

1312
01:24:17.630 --> 01:24:18.130
we

1313
01:24:18.590 --> 01:24:21.010
there's final thoughts on this,

1314
01:24:21.470 --> 01:24:24.690
particular topic. I know we still have some time in the next panel

1315
01:24:25.535 --> 01:24:27.395
to follow-up on some of the themes.

1316
01:24:29.135 --> 01:24:30.355
I'll just invite

1317
01:24:31.055 --> 01:24:33.795
invite you both if there's something that you want to.

1318
01:24:34.815 --> 01:24:36.995
I think if we just got our words right,

1319
01:24:37.770 --> 01:24:40.750
our instincts and intuitions and our intentions would follow.

1320
01:24:40.890 --> 01:24:44.990
And I really think it's as simple as flipping eating together to gathering to eat.

1321
01:24:45.050 --> 01:24:47.230
I think if we actually got that flip,

1322
01:24:47.530 --> 01:24:50.510
I actually think we could follow through because to gather

1323
01:24:50.890 --> 01:24:51.950
is not about

1324
01:24:52.395 --> 01:24:54.574
necessarily just food, although it is a beautiful

1325
01:24:55.034 --> 01:24:56.974
thought about harvesting your food.

1326
01:24:58.155 --> 01:25:00.574
So I think language helps us form intentions.

1327
01:25:01.195 --> 01:25:06.715
And I think that's what I come back to over and over again is, am I gathering? Have I done that?

1328
01:25:06.715 --> 01:25:08.014
What does that look like?

1329
01:25:08.420 --> 01:25:13.480
And gathering is the dependent stance, right? Is how do I invite that dependence and make it safe?

1330
01:25:14.660 --> 01:25:16.360
And make it safe to land here.

1331
01:25:16.980 --> 01:25:17.480
Yeah.

1332
01:25:18.100 --> 01:25:31.945
And I would add or supplement or I mean, say the same thing in a slightly different way, but just add to that is that if we keep it in our mind that we are inviting the dependent so that we can deliver care,

1333
01:25:32.885 --> 01:25:36.870
and if we if we have that that, you know, that

1334
01:25:37.410 --> 01:25:43.030
as I prepare the food, as I define the food, as I do the ritual, as I gather that,

1335
01:25:43.570 --> 01:25:44.310
that that

1336
01:25:45.410 --> 01:25:52.614
I I I am the vehicle here, allowing nature to take care of my child because I through me taking care of them.

1337
01:25:52.755 --> 01:25:53.895
And so the receptivity

1338
01:25:54.355 --> 01:26:00.594
is important. I begin to realize I need to gather. I need to collect the eyes, the smiles, the nods.

1339
01:26:00.594 --> 01:26:06.579
I need to be able to do this in a way that the the the food can then be delivered and and,

1340
01:26:07.460 --> 01:26:12.520
in service its its true function be optimized, so to speak. Like, everything has a potential.

1341
01:26:12.900 --> 01:26:17.060
And what Deborah is talking about here is our food is is is

1342
01:26:17.575 --> 01:26:22.935
we we are not realizing the potential of how of our food, of how we could be taken care of.

1343
01:26:22.935 --> 01:26:25.975
We are being poisoned by it. It's in the wrong context.

1344
01:26:25.975 --> 01:26:32.690
And so it it's, I think, keeping care in mind that how do I get the care across? How do I

1345
01:26:33.070 --> 01:26:34.369
invite, embrace a dependency?

1346
01:26:35.150 --> 01:26:37.329
And, and and food becomes

1347
01:26:37.869 --> 01:26:40.369
part of that primordial dance of attachment.

1348
01:26:41.150 --> 01:26:46.895
And if it is part of the primordial dance of attachment, I think the rest of it kind of just just,

1349
01:26:48.315 --> 01:26:49.995
you know, settles out.

1350
01:26:50.395 --> 01:26:51.855
It it falls into place.

1351
01:26:54.155 --> 01:26:54.655
Yeah.

1352
01:26:55.435 --> 01:26:55.935
Yeah.

1353
01:26:57.275 --> 01:26:58.235
Well, I,

1354
01:27:00.510 --> 01:27:01.170
I think

1355
01:27:01.550 --> 01:27:04.130
for me, I just I wanna hold on to this

1356
01:27:04.510 --> 01:27:06.449
the whole idea of the gathering because

1357
01:27:07.070 --> 01:27:09.409
the gathering has so much invitation in it.

1358
01:27:10.190 --> 01:27:11.869
And I I,

1359
01:27:12.445 --> 01:27:18.145
it just, and there's so much heart in that, you know, that gathering feels like you're gathering at a heart level and,

1360
01:27:18.525 --> 01:27:22.685
and providing food from a heart level. And, and that just,

1361
01:27:23.485 --> 01:27:24.545
feels so key

1362
01:27:24.845 --> 01:27:26.225
to be able to receive,

1363
01:27:26.880 --> 01:27:31.140
receive the care that is there to give. And if we can find it in ourselves

1364
01:27:31.760 --> 01:27:36.020
to be able to find that place in ourselves to offer it from, it's not always easy.

1365
01:27:36.480 --> 01:27:38.100
It's not always easy at all.

1366
01:27:39.120 --> 01:27:39.620
Yeah,

1367
01:27:40.720 --> 01:27:41.460
it's important.

1368
01:27:44.265 --> 01:27:45.245
Thank you, Deborah.

1369
01:27:45.625 --> 01:27:46.265
Thank you for

1370
01:27:46.825 --> 01:27:47.325
yes.

1371
01:27:47.864 --> 01:27:50.344
That that was, that was wonderful.

1372
01:27:50.344 --> 01:27:53.725
I was wondering how in the world you're gonna take, you know, after

1373
01:27:54.105 --> 01:27:55.950
pouring your heart and mind into,

1374
01:27:56.430 --> 01:28:00.510
what is it, five years of of research now? Right now. Double that. Yeah.

1375
01:28:00.510 --> 01:28:02.430
And and and writing all of that, I know.

1376
01:28:02.430 --> 01:28:09.330
Like, you you you know, you always write probably double what your what they will you know, your manuscript ends up to being.

1377
01:28:09.455 --> 01:28:13.775
And then to have to bring that all into a twenty five minute, I thought,

1378
01:28:14.815 --> 01:28:20.675
I I was curious about just how you were going to bring that all in because, again, it's just so many pieces.

1379
01:28:20.815 --> 01:28:22.915
But bringing in those things, receptivity,

1380
01:28:23.375 --> 01:28:23.875
rest,

1381
01:28:24.260 --> 01:28:28.360
ritual, being able to, just touch on the myths for us.

1382
01:28:29.060 --> 01:28:29.719
I think,

1383
01:28:30.100 --> 01:28:34.920
again, as you said, you've given us a lot of food for thought. Thank you. Yeah.

1384
01:28:35.300 --> 01:28:40.099
And I look forward to exploring this more in September together when your book comes out. Yeah.

1385
01:28:40.099 --> 01:28:41.960
I can't wait to gather again.

1386
01:28:43.219 --> 01:28:43.719
Yeah.